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'90 Buick start/stall (Read 84,694 times)

Retired

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #45 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am

Mick wrote on Sep 16^th, 2011 at 8:38pm:

Retired wrote on Sep 16^th, 2011 at 7:40pm:

Just turning the key to KOEO and OFF, the pressure goes to 46psi then drops to around 41psi.

Fantastic so we know we have good pressure

Retired wrote on Sep 16^th, 2011 at 7:40pm:

I think that the injectors are supplied with 12V at KOEO.I'm not following how that's going to check for pressure drop unless I ground the trigger side??That also powers the ECM.

You are going to get an injector pulser and disconnect all injector electrical harnesses (very easy to do on this set up) At this point why don’t you use your ohm meter and check resistance across each injector?
Then turn key on to prime injector rail and then press pulser which will drop pressure X amount then go to next injector prime and pulse all pressure drops had better be the same.

Where is the 10ms/div injector wave from the fluke?

Retired wrote on Sep 16^th, 2011 at 7:40pm:

Is it possible that the FPR could be blocking gas from the injectors?

The regulator is the last part of the fuel flow, it allows pressure to build not block.

Retired wrote on Sep 16^th, 2011 at 7:40pm:

You guys aren't commenting about the fact that the Bypass/EST are switching back and forth while cranking.Or do I have more than one problem?

You are showing us primary current so we have to assume you have spark besides you said it ran on quick start.

The thing that stands out to me on the ref along with bypass/est is the speed change can you explain this for us?

Does the engine crank evenly?

Injector pulser? That's something that if needed, I'd have to order as nobody seems to carry that locally. Which means it's something that can't be rented. I'd perfer to ohm out first but better yet I have a LCR meter which is the best thing for checking a coil of any kind.

The "zoomed" capture above is at 10ms/div. Will that suffice or you actually want one done at 10ms/div? There is a time delay, so I can't always jump on something as soon as you ask.

If you look at the original series of pictures I posted, you'll see that in one frame the Ref(Hi) signal is still ON and the Bypass/EST are flatlined. I seems that no two waveform series or tries are the same.

Bill

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #46 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 6:10am

Randy H. wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 2:10am:

the Fluke is much better

- they make the best handheld scope on the planet IMHO - and we can see the details much better

these injector current waveforms are not showing any inductive reactance when they are turned on - it looks like they MAY be shorted internally if your scope has enough sample power in the timebase you chose. (10ms per divison as Mick said will allow us to get a better picture)

You may have more than one problem but lets repair what we know is broken first.

You should know that most scopes get weaker in longer timebases of 50ms and beyond, so you get less samples of the waveform. In other words, you may not get a TRUE representation of the waveform.
The Flukes are not like a Pico which performs great at 50,100,200ms and beyond. Wink

Wink

However the Flukes do have isolated floating grounds which is freaking awesome.

Email Tom and ask him for the password to the creative labscope technique page. I think you may have to ask? You can also access the sample rate calculator there which will show you what I mean by the scope getting weaker sample power at long timebases.

Your saying that they all are shorted? Do they die of old age? Remember there's only 20K on it.

Well, the Fluke Scopemeter line at least has software support. They do have a new 4-channel model out now!

I must have had access years ago because I remember using a sample rate calculator. I called OTC/SPX asking for a spec value to key into the calculator but they quized me on why I wanted it and refused.

I'm not sure if your familiar with Waveform Manager Pro from Metratek? My first scope of any kind was the OTC Perception which is supported by their software. The author was part of the Perception design team so he's known at OTC/SPX. Years ago, he repeatedly approached them about supporting their Solarity with his software. They jacked him around till he gave up! Angry

Angry

I actually have injector current ramp captures using the Perception from 2003 after replacing the ECM. I should post one.

Bill

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Mick

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #47 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 6:24am

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am:

Injector pulser?

http://www.mactools.com/ShopOnline/Product/tabid/120/productid/325860/variantid/...

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am:

I'd perfer to ohm out first but better yet I have a LCR meter which is the best thing for checking a coil of any kind.

The ohms are of each injector?

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am:

The "zoomed" capture above is at 10ms/div.Will that suffice or you actually want one done at 10ms/div?

Like Randyhas told you the more time base you have the sope will become less accurate. So let’s try 10ms/div then zoom in if we need. If the wave is still choppy then try 5ms/div.

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am:

There is a time delay, so I can't always jump on something as soon as you ask.

Which state and town do you live?

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am:

If you look at the original series of pictures I posted, you'll see that in one frame the Ref(Hi) signal is still ON and the Bypass/EST are flatlined.

Right now I am more concerned with the speed of the ref or more so how it slows down.
So I will ask again how does the engine sound cranking continuously.

Not to confuse here but was there ever a noise from the crank pully like a clack clack noise?

Mick

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #48 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 7:35am

Mick wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 6:24am:

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am:

Injector pulser?

http://www.mactools.com/ShopOnline/Product/tabid/120/productid/325860/variantid/...

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am:

I'd perfer to ohm out first but better yet I have a LCR meter which is the best thing for checking a coil of any kind.

The ohms are of each injector?

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am:

The "zoomed" capture above is at 10ms/div.Will that suffice or you actually want one done at 10ms/div?

Like Randyhas told you the more time base you have the sope will become less accurate. So let’s try 10ms/div then zoom in if we need. If the wave is still choppy then try 5ms/div.

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am:

There is a time delay, so I can't always jump on something as soon as you ask.

Which state and town do you live?

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:52am:

If you look at the original series of pictures I posted, you'll see that in one frame the Ref(Hi) signal is still ON and the Bypass/EST are flatlined.

Right now I am more concerned with the speed of the ref or more so how it slows down.
So I will ask again how does the engine sound cranking continuously.

Not to confuse here but was there ever a noise from the crank pully like a clack clack noise?

It seems to crank evenly when cranked and no noise from the pulley.

This went from a return to me using Quick Start, two days later it start's right up and did that for a week. A few times, it started, ran for a few minutes, just stopped, later restarted and to a no start.

I "might" be wrong but it seems that if it's shorted injectors, they wouldn't be a problem' go away and come back later. Unless, they are/were partial shorts in the coil that have increased.

I'm in Warren, MI 48092, about a mile from the GM Tech Center.

That same injector pulser is at O'Reilly's for $135.99.

Bill

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #49 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 9:02am

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 7:35am:

There is a time delay, so I can't always jump on something as soon as you ask.

Which state and town do you live?

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 7:35am:

I'm in Warren, MI 48092, about a mile from the GM Tech Center.

Me, You and Randy are all in the same time zone.

Now we need a member who lives close to you to pay you a visit.

I get down to Windsor Ontario for family functions, next time I am there I will cross the bridge and come find you, maybe.

Mick

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #50 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 9:22am

Quote:

Email Tom and ask him for the password to the creative labscope technique page. I think you may have to ask?

No need for that. Simply follow the directions on the page under the rolling eyeballs. Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

The Fluke is miles ahead of the OTC but miles behind a Modis/Verus. Pico is up to 700 times faster than a Modis so all the rest can't even be seen in the rear view mirror. Wink

Wink

Quote:

I called OTC/SPX asking for a spec value to key into the calculator but they quized me on why I wanted it and refused.

There are only two possible reasons they refuse.

1. They don't know their own hardware (not good)
2. They are ashamed of it. (also not good)

BTW....I see the images Retired posted here reside on an outside server. We prefer you attach them here so they reside on our server. This preserves the integrity of the archives and prevents the images from later vanishment. Shocked

Shocked

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Randy H.

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #51 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:10am

Tom Roberts wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 9:22am:

There are only two possible reasons they refuse.

1. They don't know their own hardware (not good)
2. They are ashamed of it. (also not good)

A bit off subject - but you should know this is you ever buy another scope for yourself Retired:

I went through the spec game years ago when i decided to buy a scope. None of the scopes I looked at would tell you many specs.
I am very glad I decided to call Tom. He basically told me how a scope works and helped me wade through the BS of other scopes. He wasnt even trying to sell me a scope either. He didnt have to: the pico kind of speaks for itself (specs).

Im very glad I didnt buy the Solarity - its really just not good enough for automotive use. And what is worse you can get a pico quad kit for only a little more! Shocked

Shocked

To add to what Mick was saying about noise from the front pulley: if the crank sensor is on the front pulley and you have excessive crank endplay - this can cause erratic signaling.

Randy Hatton
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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #52 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:13am

Mick wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 9:02am:

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 7:35am:

There is a time delay, so I can't always jump on something as soon as you ask.

Which state and town do you live?

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 7:35am:

I'm in Warren, MI 48092, about a mile from the GM Tech Center.

Me, You and Randy are all in the same time zone.

Now we need a member who lives close to you to pay you a visit.

I get down to Windsor Ontario for family functions, next time I am there I will cross the bridge and come find you, maybe.

The time delay is whenever you post, add whenever I read one and getting/making time to perform the test.

Since your in Canada, do you remember a site there that provided training but also had a forum? I can't think of the name right now although it's gone, I believe. It was only for mechanics but I was allowed to post/ask questions because I had the Perception back in 2003.

BTW: In my last batch of pictures in the Bypass waveform around 3-4V is a shinny spot. That's the reflection of my bald head in the Solarity! Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

Bill

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #53 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:16am

Randy H. wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:10am:

Tom Roberts wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 9:22am:

There are only two possible reasons they refuse.

1. They don't know their own hardware (not good)
2. They are ashamed of it. (also not good)

I went through this years ago when i decided to buy a scope. None of the scopes I looked at would tell you many specs.
I am very glad I decided to call Tom. He basically told me how a scope works and helped me wade through the BS of other scopes. He wasnt even trying to sell me a scope either. He didnt have to: the pico kind of speaks for itself (specs).

Im very glad I didnt buy the Solarity - its really just not good enough for automotive use. And what is worse you can get a pico quad kit for only a little more! Shocked

Shocked

I had no room for a laptop on cart with wheels. That why I got a hand held back then.

Bill

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #54 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:24am

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:16am:

I had no room for a laptop on cart with wheels. That why I got a hand held back then.

I understand what you are saying, but its not necessary to put one on wheels(cart).

Please let us know when you can do the injectors at 10ms per div.

Save this for later after you scope the injectors but:
Do you know how to check for excessive crankshaft end play?
(got a dial indicator?)

Randy Hatton
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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #55 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 12:45pm

Randy H. wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:24am:

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:16am:

I had no room for a laptop on cart with wheels. That why I got a hand held back then.

I understand what you are saying, but its not necessary to put one on wheels(cart).

Please let us know when you can do the injectors at 10ms per div.

Save this for later after you scope the injectors but:
Do you know how to check for excessive crankshaft end play?
(got a dial indicator?)

Just think about the weight of a laptop in around 2003(W98). I laugh when I see one holding one outstretched in one hand now a days.

Dial .001, Browne&Sharp .0005 and Browne&Sharp .0001 which are Last Word type. I've checked for excessive end play on machinery of all types but never on a engine.

Bill

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #56 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 1:48pm

It is plain to me that there is a problem in the circuitry concerning the injectors; those highly irregular pulses.
Questions like these come to mind...Is there a voltage drop on the power side of the circuit? Is the wire between the injector and the trigger intact, the connection solid? Perhaps the fuse for it has corrosion? Does the power side have a loose connection?
It seems like it would be a bad connection on account of the intermittentness and irregular shape.

Donald Bruce Gamble

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #57 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 6:11am

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:13am:

Since your in Canada, do you remember a site there that provided training but also had a forum?

No Bill I never heard of them.

Thanks for the injector wave but the scope capture is still choppy.

Can you reduce the time base to 2 ms/div to see if that helps.

What location in the circuit are you hooked up to when taken the injector waves?

Did you ohm each injector yet? What are the readings?

The noise I asked about would not come from crank end float it would come from the harmonic balancer they tend to loosen up and cause havoc to the vanes that pass the sensor.

Fisher for voltage and amps I use the Pico I find it better to read the whole circuit with all four channels at once, when you work alone taking a snap shot of the circuit working then reading it is a great help.
For the rare times I ohm check anything I have a fluke 98.

Mick

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #58 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 6:47am

Mick wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 6:11am:

Retired wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:13am:

Since your in Canada, do you remember a site there that provided training but also had a forum?

No Bill I never heard of them.

Thanks for the injector wave but the scope capture is still choppy.

Can you reduce the time base to 2 ms/div to see if that helps.

What location in the circuit are you hooked up to when taken the injector waves?

Did you ohm each injector yet? What are the readings?

The noise I asked about would not come from crank end float it would come from the harmonic balancer they tend to loosen up and cause havoc to the vanes that pass the sensor.

Fisher for voltage and amps I use the Pico I find it better to read the whole circuit with all four channels at once, when you work alone taking a snap shot of the circuit working then reading it is a great help.
For the rare times I ohm check anything I have a fluke 98.

That Canadian forum helped me use my Perception to find the problem on the same vehicle back in 2003. Not sure if the URL is in my old laptop as I may have deleted it years ago.

I'm clamped on both trigger wires at the ECM as was asked for earlier.

I thought that a concrete answer as wether or not I have shorted injector(s) could be diagnosed without ohming individual injectors?

Since Tom aimed me at the way into the Creative Waveform page. He has a voltage waveform for a shorted injector that is exactly what I have posted in Reply #40.

Yes, I have since ohm'd out the injectors. Specs are 11.8-12.6 ohms. I get 12.2, 12.2. 12.3, 12.3, 9.2 and the winner at 1.2 ohms. The low ones are one on each bank.

I've read that ohming injectors isn't a 100% valid check but I'm unsure if that's true. I was thinking of getting the injector pluser and using it to current ramp each but would that even be needed as it would be just a added expense but would be interesting?

Since injectors aren't cheap. I've seen online from around $35-$60 and locally $60-$70 each. Replacie just the two or all six which could be $300. Remember, there might be other issues like the injector took out the ECM. I've read this is a known issue on this engine.

Injectors, new, reman, brand name, etc.???????? Suggestions, please.

« Last Edit: Sep 18^th, 2011 at 8:58am by Retired »

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Mick

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #59 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 7:14am

Retired wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 6:47am:

Yes, I have since ohm'd out the injectors.Specs are 11.8-12.6 ohms.I get 12.2, 12.2. 12.3, 12.3, 9.2 and the winner at 1.2 ohms.The low ones are one on each bank.

Awesome Bill

Now disconnect that 1.2 ohm injector and crank it over it may take a long crank even with the throttle flat out on the floor to clear flood but give it a try.

You may try disconnecting that 9.2 injector as well.

It will run rough but it should start at least.

Run out there and give it a try.

Mick

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