Autonerdz Home Autonerdz FAQ User’s Comments Autonerdz Events Autonerdz Store Contact Autonerdz
 
  Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Autonerdz - Since 2000, North America's Authority on PicoScope
 
  HomeHelpSearch Member Map Event CalendarRegisterLogin  
 
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 
'90 Buick start/stall (Read 84,695 times)
Randy H.
Super Nerd
Picogroup
*****
Offline


Tools are only as good
as the Tech holding them

Posts: 1,692

Bardstown, Kentucky, Kentucky, USA
Bardstown, Kentucky
Kentucky
USA

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #75 - Sep 19th, 2011 at 10:34am
 
I would replace ALL of the injectors on the vehicle, unless you want to do the job again in the near future.
My OTC injector balance/coil tester is good for testing injector flow on the car(but not pattern of spray) and also will test the coil for shorts
Since you have a scope and you are not a technician I would not worry about buying one

The vertical rise in the current ramp when it is turned on clues you in to the shorted injector - as I point out on the pic below

The only time i use a ohmmeter is when I have a bad short somewhere in the vehicle and I have to power it down

Heres the pic showing where to look for bad injectors - the same effect can be seen in any type of shorted solenoid.
To completely verify an injector you have to flow it, check for shorts and opens, and check the spray pattern. However there are a few tricks with a scantool you can use to ID a fueling problem and narrow it down. Fuel trims are the big tip off here. Im not a gas analyzer guy, but you can also use on of those to verify.

If you really want to learn more about vehicles, I would recommend subscribing to Flatrater.com, and pay a visit also to ATS training - they have a lot of good stuff on there for free. And of course, the absolute best place to learn about scopes is: well you know Wink
your already here Grin
Another good one is Larry Carleys website - aa1 car. But it is geared more towards beginners.
And then you have Motor Magazine, Engine builder magazine, and the list goes on.
Theres a lot of good info on the net - you just have to find it! Wink
Back to top
« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2011 at 10:51am by Randy H. »  


Randy Hatton
Fleet Technician
Elevation: AVG 648 ft.
 
IP Logged
 
Retired
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 63

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #76 - Sep 19th, 2011 at 11:18am
 
Randy H. wrote on Sep 19th, 2011 at 10:34am:
I would replace ALL of the injectors on the vehicle, unless you want to do the job again in the near future.
My OTC injector balance/coil tester is good for testing injector flow on the car(but not pattern of spray) and also will test the coil for shorts
Since you have a scope and you are not a technician I would not worry about buying one

The vertical rise in the current ramp when it is turned on clues you in to the shorted injector - as I point out on the pic below

The only time i use a ohmmeter is when I have a bad short somewhere in the vehicle and I have to power it down

Heres the pic showing where to look for bad injectors - the same effect can be seen in any type of shorted solenoid.
To completely verify an injector you have to flow it, check for shorts and opens, and check the spray pattern. However there are a few tricks with a scantool you can use to ID a fueling problem and narrow it down. Fuel trims are the big tip off here. Im not a gas analyzer guy, but you can also use on of those to verify.

If you really want to learn more about vehicles, I would recommend subscribing to Flatrater.com, and pay a visit also to ATS training - they have a lot of good stuff on there for free. And of course, the absolute best place to learn about scopes is: well you know Wink
your already here Grin
Another good one is Larry Carleys website - aa1 car. But it is geared more towards beginners.
And then you have Motor Magazine, Engine builder magazine, and the list goes on.
Theres a lot of good info on the net - you just have to find it! Wink


I did order a six pack of DRI's from LTS.

So do you use your OTC unit to verify a shorted injector?

What do you use for voltage drop test, the Pico?

Believe it or not I have a 5-Gas Analyzer and was going to use it maybe.  I found the software on my old laptop, installed it, powered it up to see what if anything was in memory and was greeted with the "Failed Calibration" and "Replace O2 Sensor".  The thing is old and no parts available but I "think" there are other units that use the same O2 sensor.

This vehicle has a ICM and ECM.  Now, since they are combined in the PCM and have been since OBD-II, aren't you more limited as to what can be done with a scope?  Don't you now a days need the systems used at dealers like the Ford IDS?  I have limited access to Ford's Oasis System and can look at all the manuals.  Every year the info has been reduced.  A big change came in 2006 in the Ford PC/ED manuals as they removed info concerning memory locations of PIDS .  My main ride is a '09 Ford Escape and there was some major changes in the PCM starting in that MY and even still to date there are several OBD-II devices that don't work correctly on it.
Back to top
 

Bill
 
IP Logged
 
Randy H.
Super Nerd
Picogroup
*****
Offline


Tools are only as good
as the Tech holding them

Posts: 1,692

Bardstown, Kentucky, Kentucky, USA
Bardstown, Kentucky
Kentucky
USA

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #77 - Sep 19th, 2011 at 11:25am
 
Retired wrote on Sep 19th, 2011 at 11:18am:
I did order a six pack of DRI's from LTS.

So do you use your OTC unit to verify a shorted injector?

What do you use for voltage drop test, the Pico?

Good job ordering six injectors - smart move Cool

I use the Pico or my scantool to verify injector operation (the scantool isnt an exact science on this though)
It really depends on what is closest to me and how fast I need to get the job done Smiley

I use my Fluke 87 III for voltage drop testing - it is more accurate than the Pico in that respect, and Its not so easy to blow up, and costs 1/4 as much as the Pico if I do blow it up on one of my stupid days Grin
Back to top
 

Randy Hatton
Fleet Technician
Elevation: AVG 648 ft.
 
IP Logged
 
Mick
LSD Guide
*****
Offline


I learn every day

Posts: 7,471

Toronto 400ft, Ontario, Canada
Toronto 400ft
Ontario
Canada

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #78 - Sep 19th, 2011 at 5:23pm
 
Randy H. wrote on Sep 18th, 2011 at 5:56pm:
yeah - if one was to look back at the beginning of this thread - you would see that Mick nailed this from his very FIRST post. You can call it pattern failure, but I call it as 'Micks a helluva technician'


Thanks for the recognition Randy It’s nice to be appreciated now and then.

Retired wrote on Sep 18th, 2011 at 7:47pm:
You must admit the scope I was using put some doubt in your minds and can see why but overall


Absolutely not Bill
You see we use the Pico and both your scopes here just don’t cut it in our line of work.
Maybe ok for the DYI, what we did was to tell you how to use your scopes to the maximum capacity that those limited capacity scope could be used.
What I suggest you do if you want to tinker, is to purchase a quad kit from Tom and join in the Pico Group area were you will find all the techniques us guys use every day in our bays.
This is not the forum to give out this precious information.


Retired wrote on Sep 18th, 2011 at 7:36pm:
The site I spoke about from Canada would play these games.A tech would have had a vehicle with a problem that they fixed.They'd post the symptoms and ask what they'd want to check.They'd post what was asked for and away it went.


When you buy the http://www.autonerdz.com/picoquad4000.htm you will find lots of this type of case studies, a lot of people learn from them, it’s a great way to share. So jump in and come drink the  Smiley
Back to top
 

 Mick
mick_3342 mikejonesautoengineering  
IP Logged
 
crackerclicker
Super Nerd
Picogroup
*****
Offline


Elevation 834 ft

Posts: 2,358

Watertown, Wisconsin, USA
Watertown
Wisconsin
USA

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #79 - Sep 19th, 2011 at 7:56pm
 
Retired wrote on Sep 19th, 2011 at 11:18am:
Now, since they are combined in the PCM and have been since OBD-II, aren't you more limited as to what can be done with a scope?


depends on who you ask  Grin.  scantools have made a big leap, but scoping still plays a major role in other aspects.
Back to top
 
crackerclicker  
IP Logged
 
Retired
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 63

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #80 - Sep 19th, 2011 at 7:57pm
 
Mick wrote on Sep 19th, 2011 at 5:23pm:
Randy H. wrote on Sep 18th, 2011 at 5:56pm:
yeah - if one was to look back at the beginning of this thread - you would see that Mick nailed this from his very FIRST post. You can call it pattern failure, but I call it as 'Micks a helluva technician'


Thanks for the recognition Randy It’s nice to be appreciated now and then.

Retired wrote on Sep 18th, 2011 at 7:47pm:
You must admit the scope I was using put some doubt in your minds and can see why but overall


Absolutely not Bill
You see we use the Pico and both your scopes here just don’t cut it in our line of work.
Maybe ok for the DYI, what we did was to tell you how to use your scopes to the maximum capacity that those limited capacity scope could be used.
What I suggest you do if you want to tinker, is to purchase a quad kit from Tom and join in the Pico Group area were you will find all the techniques us guys use every day in our bays.
This is not the forum to give out this precious information.


Retired wrote on Sep 18th, 2011 at 7:36pm:
The site I spoke about from Canada would play these games.A tech would have had a vehicle with a problem that they fixed.They'd post the symptoms and ask what they'd want to check.They'd post what was asked for and away it went.


When you buy the http://www.autonerdz.com/picoquad4000.htm you will find lots of this type of case studies, a lot of people learn from them, it’s a great way to share. So jump in and come drink the  Smiley

Mick:

Nope, a Pico is out of the question for me.  Maybe back in 2003 when I got interested in this stuff and chose a handheld over a laptop tethered Pico but I'm afraid it's too late for me now.

I'm a DIY in every catagory, speciality of none except when you get into mechanical stuff as that was my trade.  I was a Navy electronics tech but that was in the mid-sixties, so I'll say that I have an electrical background.

Pico could be the very best but I doubt if every shop has one.  Anybody in my area??  I asked above but wasn't answered.  Hasn't the advancements made in the automobile made through the years made the need for scopes, less and less?  The older manuals had waveforms, no such thing in newer manuals  which are thinner every year while explaining less and less also.  Hasn't this given way to the use of things like the Ford IDS which might have a built-in scope module?

Since the ICM is combined with the ECM, renamed the PCM under OBD-II and no published info about the PCM, aren't you left in the dark?  Or are the high end scanners that good.  I know that my ProSumer level scanner shows more PIDs on a 2004 Ford Taurus than my 2009 Ford Escape.

I breezed through some pages of other sections and didn't see much of anything about newer vehicles problems.  Lots of nineties vehicles but above two thousand, very few.
Back to top
 

Bill
 
IP Logged
 
Retired
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 63

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #81 - Sep 19th, 2011 at 8:11pm
 
crackerclicker wrote on Sep 19th, 2011 at 7:56pm:
Retired wrote on Sep 19th, 2011 at 11:18am:
Now, since they are combined in the PCM and have been since OBD-II, aren't you more limited as to what can be done with a scope?


depends on who you ask  Grin.  scantools have made a big leap, but scoping still plays a major role in other aspects.  

Other aspects?  In what way?  I can see possibly ignition but once it's into the PCM, what do use or even, how do you know since nothing is explained.  As the shop foreman at my Ford dealership stated, "If it ain't in the book, Ford doesn't want us to know".

I've asked them about the operation of what I call their UnIntelligent Four Wheel Drive System.  They couldn't answer and the Ford HotLine said was unavailble.  So I then opened the consule where the 4WD module is and connected a scope to it.  Never believe a sales brochure or even pages at Ford operated sites.
Back to top
 

Bill
 
IP Logged
 
Randy H.
Super Nerd
Picogroup
*****
Offline


Tools are only as good
as the Tech holding them

Posts: 1,692

Bardstown, Kentucky, Kentucky, USA
Bardstown, Kentucky
Kentucky
USA

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #82 - Sep 20th, 2011 at 12:40am
 
Retired wrote on Sep 19th, 2011 at 7:57pm:
Anybody in my area??  I asked above but wasn't answered.  Hasn't the advancements made in the automobile made manuals had waveforms, no such thing in newer manuals  which are through the years made the need for scopes, less and less?  The older thinner every year while explaining less and less also.  Hasn't this given way to the use of things like the Ford IDS which might have a built-in scope module?

Since the ICM is combined with the ECM, renamed the PCM under OBD-II and no published info about the PCM, aren't you left in the dark?  Or are the high end scanners that good. 


The need for scopes is actually more and more - you have that backwards. There used to be only a few wires in a vehicle - I can re-wire a 1970 Camaro in 1 day. But give me a 2010 Cadillac and there are MILES of wiring - it would take a month. The scope can help you narrow down problems in these miles of wire very quickly.

Who needs a book of waveforms? We have a LIBRARY of waveforms here on this site, and in the pico software, and we dont have to carry a book around!

Scantools have a sample rate of data, just like a scope - the less pids you have - the more samples it takes of data. There are a lot of things a scantool can miss - but the scanner can LEAD you to the right area quickly if you know what to look for.

I can see you have a lot of misconceptions about scopes and their use in the automotive field.
Just know this - there is a time to use a tool - and a time to put it away and use something else. Almost every technican I know of will ALMOST always pull out his/her scantool first, even when there are no codes. My Pico is pretty much my ace in the hole! Smiley




Back to top
 

Randy Hatton
Fleet Technician
Elevation: AVG 648 ft.
 
IP Logged
 
Retired
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 63

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #83 - Sep 20th, 2011 at 6:32am
 
Randy H. wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 12:40am:
Retired wrote on Sep 19th, 2011 at 7:57pm:
Anybody in my area??  I asked above but wasn't answered.  Hasn't the advancements made in the automobile made manuals had waveforms, no such thing in newer manuals  which are through the years made the need for scopes, less and less?  The older thinner every year while explaining less and less also.  Hasn't this given way to the use of things like the Ford IDS which might have a built-in scope module?

Since the ICM is combined with the ECM, renamed the PCM under OBD-II and no published info about the PCM, aren't you left in the dark?  Or are the high end scanners that good.  


The need for scopes is actually more and more - you have that backwards. There used to be only a few wires in a vehicle - I can re-wire a 1970 Camaro in 1 day. But give me a 2010 Cadillac and there are MILES of wiring - it would take a month. The scope can help you narrow down problems in these miles of wire very quickly.

Who needs a book of waveforms? We have a LIBRARY of waveforms here on this site, and in the pico software, and we dont have to carry a book around!

Scantools have a sample rate of data, just like a scope - the less pids you have - the more samples it takes of data. There are a lot of things a scantool can miss - but the scanner can LEAD you to the right area quickly if you know what to look for.

I can see you have a lot of misconceptions about scopes and their use in the automotive field.
Just know this - there is a time to use a tool - and a time to put it away and use something else. Almost every technican I know of will ALMOST always pull out his/her scantool first, even when there are no codes. My Pico is pretty much my ace in the hole! Smiley

If scopes are needed more and more where are the posts for that 2010 Caddie here?  I know what a scope can do but just see their usefulness dwindling on newer vehicles and the lack of posts here on those vehicles seems to prove that.  Don't take this as a personal attack but it seems that the auto manufactures are the cause of this.  I'm not sure if they are trying to force customers to go back to the dealers for service or what?

Being a person that drove around one day with two DMMs going, my Perception in my lap, shifting a 4-speed, I believe in scopes.

These days most technical information is proprietory and not even included in their own manuals.

I used to mention using a scope to electricians at work and they would laugh even though they had access to them. I remember one urnating contest where I suggested using a scope and mechanical lost the battle.  Three days of downtime and $6,000 of percision bearings later, the problem was still there.  The problem turned out to be the cord to a proximity sensor or what you may call a crank sensor which could have been easily diagnosed with a scope or even a DMM used correctly.  We normally had to rebuild something to prove that it wasn't mechanical.  Trial and pay! Smiley
Back to top
 

Bill
 
IP Logged
 
Randy H.
Super Nerd
Picogroup
*****
Offline


Tools are only as good
as the Tech holding them

Posts: 1,692

Bardstown, Kentucky, Kentucky, USA
Bardstown, Kentucky
Kentucky
USA

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #84 - Sep 20th, 2011 at 8:46am
 
Retired wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 6:32am:
If scopes are needed more and more where are the posts for that 2010 Caddie here?  I know what a scope can do but just see their usefulness dwindling on newer vehicles and the lack of posts here on those vehicles seems to prove that.  Don't take this as a personal attack but it seems that the auto manufactures are the cause of this.  I'm not sure if they are trying to force customers to go back to the dealers for service or what?

I dont know what you mean by 'lack of posts on these vehicles'
remember you are logged in to the free access area - and you are not a member of picogroup. we have people post waveforms almost every day of every type of car you could imagine. Wink
But you have to buy a scope from tom to participate in that section.
sorry.............
Back to top
 

Randy Hatton
Fleet Technician
Elevation: AVG 648 ft.
 
IP Logged
 
Retired
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 63

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #85 - Sep 20th, 2011 at 3:55pm
 
Randy H. wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 8:46am:
Retired wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 6:32am:
If scopes are needed more and more where are the posts for that 2010 Caddie here?  I know what a scope can do but just see their usefulness dwindling on newer vehicles and the lack of posts here on those vehicles seems to prove that.  Don't take this as a personal attack but it seems that the auto manufactures are the cause of this.  I'm not sure if they are trying to force customers to go back to the dealers for service or what?

I dont know what you mean by 'lack of posts on these vehicles'
remember you are logged in to the free access area - and you are not a member of picogroup. we have people post waveforms almost every day of every type of car you could imagine. Wink
But you have to buy a scope from tom to participate in that section.
sorry.............

Hmm, that could indeed be the reason that I see no posts!

You guys never replied if you use dielectric grease "even" if there was none from the factory?

I might get the DRIs tomorrow depending on if LTS shipped the day I ordered.  I decided to try applying power through the injectors and just tapping a ground while using an amp probe and scope.  I started with the worst one.  I wasn't getting anything and discovered that I somehow had the polarity reversed.  I got a square waveform with a width of over 100ms.  I then tried one of the good ones but got the same thing.

I wondered then if I damaged the good one.  I ohm'd both.  The bad one that read 1.2 ohms before, now reads 11.2 ohms and the good one that read 12.2 ohms before , now reads 5.8 ohms.  I could maybe see that I stressed the good one that may have been weak but what happened to the bad one with which the resistance increased?
Back to top
 

Bill
 
IP Logged
 
daveyK
Super Nerd
Picogroup
*****
Offline


(Retired) - Elevation:
525 feet

Posts: 2,357

Hellertown, PA, USA, Pennsylvania, USA
Hellertown, PA, USA
Pennsylvania
USA

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #86 - Sep 20th, 2011 at 4:35pm
 
Randy H. wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 8:46am:
But you have to buy a scope from tom to participate in that section.sorry.............


Tom does offer unlimited access to the Autonerdz support system for an annual fee.

You can read about it here:
http://www.autonerdz.com/picokit.htm#_Plus_you_get

HTH

dave
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
crackerclicker
Super Nerd
Picogroup
*****
Offline


Elevation 834 ft

Posts: 2,358

Watertown, Wisconsin, USA
Watertown
Wisconsin
USA

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #87 - Sep 20th, 2011 at 5:07pm
 
Retired wrote on Sep 19th, 2011 at 8:11pm:
Other aspects?In what way?


first things that come to mind are misfires and no starts.  scan data can be useless on no starts.  and even ford's ids can misidentify a misfiring cylinder.

Retired wrote on Sep 19th, 2011 at 8:11pm:
I can see possibly ignition but once it's into the PCM, what do use or even, how do you know since nothing is explained.


you lost me a little here.  i'm guessing you are referring to ford's pip and spout, or even gm's est being internal to the pcm.  doesn't really matter because the coil still needs permission to fire.

Retired wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 6:32am:
I know what a scope can do but just see their usefulness dwindling on newer vehicles 


hmmm . . . at least until you find yourself needing to look at voltage over time  Grin.
Back to top
 
crackerclicker  
IP Logged
 
Randy H.
Super Nerd
Picogroup
*****
Offline


Tools are only as good
as the Tech holding them

Posts: 1,692

Bardstown, Kentucky, Kentucky, USA
Bardstown, Kentucky
Kentucky
USA

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #88 - Sep 21st, 2011 at 1:35am
 
crackerclicker wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 5:07pm:
first things that come to mind are misfires and no starts.  scan data can be useless on no starts.  and even ford's ids can misidentify a misfiring cylinder.

crackerclicker wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 5:07pm:
hmmm . . . at least until you find yourself needing to look at voltage over time  .


+2 Smiley

To answer the one we missed:

If the electrical connector is sealed (weatherpack, metripack, micropack, etc.) dielectric is not necessary. You really only need that on your battery cables and plug wires. NEVER use it on HO2S wiring unless you want to buy another.

Geez you have a lot of questions Retired.  Cheesy

Just joking with ya Grin
Back to top
 

Randy Hatton
Fleet Technician
Elevation: AVG 648 ft.
 
IP Logged
 
Retired
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 63

Gender: male
Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #89 - Sep 21st, 2011 at 4:50am
 
Randy H. wrote on Sep 21st, 2011 at 1:35am:
crackerclicker wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 5:07pm:
first things that come to mind are misfires and no starts.  scan data can be useless on no starts.  and even ford's ids can misidentify a misfiring cylinder.

crackerclicker wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 5:07pm:
hmmm . . . at least until you find yourself needing to look at voltage over time  .


+2 Smiley

To answer the one we missed:

If the electrical connector is sealed (weatherpack, metripack, micropack, etc.) dielectric is not necessary. You really only need that on your battery cables and plug wires. NEVER use it on HO2S wiring unless you want to buy another.

Geez you have a lot of questions Retired.  Cheesy

Just joking with ya Grin

I monitored a wireless controled switch output voltage for three days using my Fluke 123.  Part of the power company's interruptible AC service.


Not familiar with the names you metioned but they aren't like the finned rubber seals used on the FP relay.  There is a seal in the connector most of them stuck to the injector when removed, one fell off the rear bank, dropped into the abyss and had to be fished out.  So, I guess the grease isn't needed.

Any comment about the changes in resistance of the injectors?  I'm probably doing things that you just never do as you don't have the time to experiment.  Looking at one of those injector pulsers, it uss a single 500ms pulse, so my quick ground taps shouldn't have damaged them.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:58am by Retired »  

Bill
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7