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Randy H. Super Nerd Picogroup Offline Tools are only as good as the Tech holding them Posts: 1,692 Bardstown, Kentucky Kentucky USA Gender:	Re: '90 Buick start/stall Reply #90 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 9:52am resistance changes as a coil heats up and cools down and also the short may be changing its resistance some due to gasoline inside the injector. Hydrocarbon is a conductor.
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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #91 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 11:48am

Randy H. wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 9:52am:

resistance changes as a coil heats up and cools down
and also the short may be changing its resistance some due to gasoline inside the injector. Hydrocarbon is a conductor.

They read with the same changes as I posted yesterday.

Of course, this was an intermittent problem that changed daily at times.

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Randy H. Super Nerd Picogroup Offline Tools are only as good as the Tech holding them Posts: 1,692 Bardstown, Kentucky Kentucky USA Gender:	Re: '90 Buick start/stall Reply #92 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 12:02pm Retired wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 4:50am: Any comment about the changes in resistance of the injectors? what were you talking about then?
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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #93 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 12:23pm

Randy H. wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 12:02pm:

Retired wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 4:50am:

Any comment about the changes in resistance of the injectors?

what were you talking about then? Huh

I meant that the one injector that read 1.2 ohms the very first time, read 11.2 ohms after I accidentally hooked it reversed polarity yesterday and it still reads that today. The other one which was a good at 12.2 ohms droped to 5.8 ohms yesterday after triggering it connected correctly, still reads that today.

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #94 - Sep 22^nd, 2011 at 4:43pm

I received the DRIs from LTS today.

I OHM'd them all out but was very suprised to see one with sharp pointed top edge of the connector at one corner rolled over with large burrs. I was doubting if the connector would go on, so I scraped them down a bit with a three-corner scraper and tried a connector.

Half of them had a white residue on the contacts.

I found the single sheet of instructions for the upper retaining clip somewhat confusing, so I called LTS. I ended up talking to Jim Linder who explained what they were trying to say. Why not just say that the Multec has one retaining groove but the DRI has two, use the top groove.

I mentioned the connector which he suggested was a UPS problem. No hole in the box, bubble wrap or ZipLoc bag, so I doubt it.

He said that they wire brush the contacts and couldn't understand why I received ones with dirty contacts. He said that they use dielectric grease on every injector replacement job they do.

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #95 - Sep 22^nd, 2011 at 7:57pm

Yeah. I work in the Alaska commercial fishing fleet mostly as shoreside repair and sometimes crew. Marine electricians hereabout avoid wire splices and always use dielectric grease - particularly on exterior wiring.
In my own experience that is what has been necessary. Outdoors no splices except some offshore repair. Oxygen will combine with the copper to form a cuprous oxide, regardless of how much contact there is - at the molecular level.
Molecules are much smaller than a thousandth of an inch. Our pin jabbing through the insulation does introduce oxygen to the metal of the wire.

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #96 - Sep 22^nd, 2011 at 8:23pm

fisher wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2011 at 7:57pm:

Yeah. I work in the Alaska commercial fishing fleet mostly as shoreside repair and sometimes crew. Marine electricians hereabout avoid wire splices and always use dielectric grease - particularly on exterior wiring.
In my own experience that is what has been necessary. Outdoors no splices except some offshore repair. Oxygen will combine with the copper to form a cuprous oxide, regardless of how much contact there is - at the molecular level.
Molecules are much smaller than a thousandth of an inch. Our pin jabbing through the insulation does introduce oxygen to the metal of the wire.

Every wire has a beginning and an end where the bare copper is exposed to some degreee.

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #97 - Sep 27^th, 2011 at 6:29am

Installed the Bosch DRIs the other day and it's running again. I was hoping for a smoother idle but that didn't happen but maybe that's another issue.

I fail to understand LTS's caution as Jim Linder told me over the phone about using the top groove for the locking clip. There is only one groove at the top. There is no lower groove as they are really two slots parallel to the connector. If you use those them and turn the injector, the clip would be forced out of the slot and could move on its own.

Are there any installations where those two slots are used? Any rotation would release the injector! Seems dumb.

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #98 - Sep 27^th, 2011 at 11:59pm

Granted, a cars engine bay is usually much less corrosive than a salt atmosphere; the difference is obvious when you see it.
The Idle Air Control valve is radical to control of the idle speed, period. If it has a zillion miles on it you could say there is no need to diagnose anything as natural circumstances are bound to wear it out.
I'll bet if you replace it with a GM part and per chance a PCV valve and PCV hose - GM of course - that you would find a difference...providing of course you haven't done that. It sounds like it is upon it's golden hour as a vehicle and a few dollars spent will give it a new lease on life.
The dielectric is an insulator and in the case of use on ignition modules - the thick film on the back of the module provides a heat sink; aborbs and dissipates heat so that you dont leave that for the transistor to do; then using a dielectric so that we can avoid transmitting or drawing power with our heatsink grease...

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #99 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 5:48am

fisher wrote on Sep 27^th, 2011 at 11:59pm:

Granted, a cars engine bay is usually much less corrosive than a salt atmosphere; the difference is obvious when you see it.
The Idle Air Control valve is radical to control of the idle speed, period. If it has a zillion miles on it you could say there is no need to diagnose anything as natural circumstances are bound to wear it out.
I'll bet if you replace it with a GM part and per chance a PCV valve and PCV hose - GM of course - that you would find a difference...providing of course you haven't done that. It sounds like it is upon it's golden hour as a vehicle and a few dollars spent will give it a new lease on life.
The dielectric is an insulator and in the case of use on ignition modules - the thick film on the back of the module provides a heat sink; aborbs and dissipates heat so that you dont leave that for the transistor to do; then using a dielectric so that we can avoid transmitting or drawing power with our heatsink grease...

Only 20K on this vehicle. The single wire O2 sensor was defective at 14K along with the thermostat which was causing it to be in closed loop while idling but open at speeds in cooler weather.

I'm not sure what your trying to say about dielectric and heat sink grease.

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #100 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:05am

I was pointing out that the grease used for heat sinks on the back of ignition modules is a dielectric heat sink also that dielectric refers to the substance being a non-conductor of electricity.
I couldn't wrap my head around the term dielectric until I looked it up or saw it refered to as an insulator.
When put on connections it is used for the same reason as plastic around the wire; it is an insulator.

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #101 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 4:17pm

fisher wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:05am:

I was pointing out that the grease used for heat sinks on the back of ignition modules is a dielectric heat sink also that dielectric refers to the substance being a non-conductor of electricity.
I couldn't wrap my head around the term dielectric until I looked it up or saw it refered to as an insulator.
When put on connections it is used for the same reason as plastic around the wire; it is an insulator.

I'm not sure about that as heat sink grease is to provide a good thermo bond to dissipate heat.

Permatex has it also, called Tune Up Grease at times. Don't you use this type of grease at times? Sometimes used right from the factory.

I think that I mentioned above that Jim Linder from LTS said that they use it on every injector job they do.

NyoGel 756G is a silica thickened, light viscosity, synthetic hydrocarbon grease intended for electrically conductive, instrument and bearing applications. This is their latest product but have some under their old product number, whatever that is.

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #102 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:23pm

Yes, it is used to dissipate the heat build up in the module. Ford, anyhow, used a dielectric grease for their heat sink grease. I swab the plugs and wires generously with it.
I actually buy larger squeeze tubes of it; Dow-Corning makes dielectrics of various grades. Keep that oxygen from making contact with any metal if possible.
I posted about another brand once, Super Lube. They have both a multi-purpose grease suitable for dielectric and a devoted dielectric grade of grease.
Multipurpose Super Lube worked well as I heard in an ambient temperature AC power environment - 'is an excellent di-electric' - and is rated grade 2 as a heavy duty grease.
Ford uses dielectric on it's brake calipers...probably on account of electrolysis. Other folks prabably use it for corrosion resistance properties such as a dielectric enhances. So, it is not just lubricating; it is serving an electrical function. We recently have tried it on an application where aluminum was having a corrosion issue; a piece that common grease wasnt helping. Conductive grease enhanced the interface between two dissimilar metals, the aluminum cover and it's stainless steel hinge.
The aluminum sacrifices to corrosion more readily when well grounded to a more corrosion resistant metal - the stainless steel. An aluminum hatch may have stainless steel hinges .if we allow the aluminum to corrode away - which aint gonna happen here if we can help it - we witness the stainless steel's corrosion rate increase. That is an electrolytic process. Hence the dielectric lubricant on the Ford caliper...I think.
Well. Electrolysis. Corrosion and dielectrics. Picoscopes.

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Re: '90 Buick start/stall
Reply #103 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:43pm

fisher wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:23pm:

Yes, it is used to dissipate the heat build up in the module. Ford, anyhow, used a dielectric grease for their heat sink grease. I swab the plugs and wires generously with it.
I actually buy larger squeeze tubes of it; Dow-Corning makes dielectrics of various grades. Keep that oxygen from making contact with any metal if possible.
I posted about another brand once, Super Lube. They have both a multi-purpose grease suitable for dielectric and a devoted dielectric grade of grease.
Multipurpose Super Lube worked well as I heard in an ambient temperature AC power environment - 'is an excellent di-electric' - and is rated grade 2 as a heavy duty grease.
Ford uses dielectric on it's brake calipers...probably on account of electrolysis. Other folks prabably use it for corrosion resistance properties such as a dielectric enhances. So, it is not just lubricating; it is serving an electrical function. We recently have tried it on an application where aluminum was having a corrosion issue; a piece that common grease wasnt helping. Conductive grease enhanced the interface between two dissimilar metals, the aluminum cover and it's stainless steel hinge.
The aluminum sacrifices to corrosion more readily when well grounded to a more corrosion resistant metal - the stainless steel. An aluminum hatch may have stainless steel hinges .if we allow the aluminum to corrode away - which aint gonna happen here if we can help it - we witness the stainless steel's corrosion rate increase. That is an electrolytic process. Hence the dielectric lubricant on the Ford caliper...I think.
Well. Electrolysis. Corrosion and dielectrics. Picoscopes.

You may have heard about the problems with aluminum wiring in homes causing fires? You can purchase Ideal Noalox Anti-Oxidant at Lowe's used to coat the wires where they are terminated. I wonder if that would help? It's messy though!

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