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Motor Age (Read 14,058 times)
Qwix0r
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Motor Age
Sep 26th, 2007 at 2:31pm
 
Hi all Smiley

Props to Tom for his Ignition Waveform , along with some outstanding comments , in this months Motorage Smiley

Qwix
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Tom Roberts
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #1 - Oct 3rd, 2007 at 8:46am
 
Thanks, Quix.  I just read that.  Peter did a good job on that article. 

I also saw the article by Jacques Gordon "Freeze Frame' where he touts the Escope as "the most powerful oscilloscope I've seen".

Guess he never saw a Pico.   Grin

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Re: Motor Age
Reply #2 - Oct 3rd, 2007 at 11:35am
 
Tom I have an e-scope. The best thing about it is finding intermittents.  It streams data and it gives you 8 choices for possibilities. Resolution on the e-scope is not near as good as the pico and now that the pico will stream data I use it quite a bit for intermittents as well.  I use triggers a lot with the pico but I find the e-scope is most times better used without triggers.  In the deep record mode where it streams it isn't possible to use triggers and if you take a triggered capture from the dual trace mode to deep record to analyze the capture you'll screw yourself up with the triggerd capture because it isn't really streamed at that point and your triggered capture will show the captures out of sync with the start and stop of each triggered screen pasted end to end. It's kind of like using the modis because of it's sample rate it's best used with short time intervals or you'll lose detail. The e-scope has other functions besides the scope that are very handy as well.
      Have you used the e-scope and whats your honest opinion if you have?
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #3 - Oct 3rd, 2007 at 12:51pm
 
Rick,

I have seen the Escope but have not had one to analyze fist hand.  It does have some neat features.  However, if you look at the specs it's not capable of acquiring many faster automotive signals.  The max sample rate is only 200KHz.  That's using only one channel.  It's gets divided down after that with more channels deployed.  So..you samples will never be closer than 5us at best.  No rotor notches, high speed can bus, etc can be sampled that slowly.

Modis can outperform an Escope.

They do have another one out now that is better but still not even close to Pico.  Pico can sample at 1MHz per channel on each of four channels with two seconds on a single screen and then put gobs of screens into the scrolling buffer.  Nothing else even comes close.

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Re: Motor Age
Reply #4 - Oct 3rd, 2007 at 5:52pm
 
Tom can the modis do a 10-20 second seamless capture. The one I demoed here I don't remember as being able to.
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #5 - Oct 3rd, 2007 at 9:03pm
 
Certainly:

Choose 50ms/div on the screen for a capture time of 13.1 seconds sampling at 10KHz.

Choose 100ms/div on the screen for a 26.2 second capture sampling at 5KHz

One channel or all four...sample rate is the same.

It's anti-zoom remember   Wink
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #6 - Oct 11th, 2007 at 1:00am
 
Mr Hill,

Do you work with an EScan to? I'm very surprised about the software and his possibility so I want to hear a second opinion from sombody who work with this tool.
Thanks in advance

Marc
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #7 - Oct 11th, 2007 at 7:58am
 
Hi Marc, call me Rick.  Yes I have the escan and I use it. It works for me as an additional tool for driveability problems but thats mostly because I am scan tool challenged around here. It certainly is no substitute for having the oem tool for the application.
    It is basically a generic obdII scan tool. It does a good job of graphing things like O2 sensors and fuel trims which was good for me because at the time I only had an mt2500 for a scan tool. I like scan tools that graph which the mt 2500 didn't. It also does a pretty good job of translating mode 6 data for what it's worth. It also has the maf and catalyst testing in it. I use it but I would not pass or fail either of these devices soly on what it tells me about them. If you've followed any of the threads on this tool at the iatn site then you know this part of the tool is highly controversial as to it's accuracy. I use those tests to see if it backs up any trends or data I already have but I don't use those tests to look for the problem.
      The tool kind of fills a hole in my tooling for me and that's what I primarily use it for.  I don't think the tool is what you would call in it's final version either.  With time I think the folks at ats will add more and new features to the tool as well as improve whats already there and the folks at ats are top notch when it comes to customer service. If you have any specific question about it I'll try and answer them as best I can.
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #8 - Oct 11th, 2007 at 8:18am
 
Rick,

Just thought I would add this for perspective:

Pico with four channels deployed will sample a 10 second capture at 200KHz and a 20 second capture at 100KHz.

That's 20 times the speed of the Modis and 8 times the Escope at that time base.

Of course, Modis capture times are such that you cannot do an exact comparison because you can't do exactly a 10 or 20 second capture with a Modis.  The closest is 13.1 seconds and 26.2 seconds.  So, the give the Modis some extra credit there for doing a longer capture.

In any case, Pico would be the AA fueled dragster next to two VW bugs.   Wink
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #9 - Oct 11th, 2007 at 9:51am
 
Hi Tom. That was my primary reason for buying the pico. Sometimes I was a bit disappointed with the detail in the e-scope captures especially at longer time bases. The difference is immediately obvious as soon as you use the pico and even at the longer timebase captures the way the detail is still there when you zoom back in is marvelous.  I now find myself using the pico as the first choice in a scope and better yet I can use the e-scope to modify signals and watch the results on a scope where as before I would have to use triggers to get the e-scope to save a screen capture of the modified signal. In other words you could leave the scope running in the background but you couldn't use the timeing menu unless it was opened because as soon as you go back to the scope screen the signal generator will quit.  Now if I could figure out how to get the e-ignition interface to work with the pico I could have an awesome ignition scope. I'm not real clear on how the e-scope works but it's best used at the faster time bases. For example if you have your time base set to 1ms per division or 10 ms per sweep you can go to deep record and it will stream 10 seconds of data continuously at that time base and the detail will be good at that time base. If you set the time base at 20 ms per division and go to deep record it will stream 20 sec of data continuously at that time base but the detail won't be near as good as it was at 1ms per division. Mine is the earlier e-scope that works through a pcmcia card.
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #10 - Oct 11th, 2007 at 11:49am
 
Rick,
Have you already worked with the EScan on European cars? What's your experience with those?
I've never seen a scantool in our country that can do a VE and cat.eff. test, so we can't compare.

I also work with a pico four channel and I am glad that I've made that choise.

Marc
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #11 - Oct 11th, 2007 at 1:59pm
 
Hi Marc yes I have had it on vws. Like I said you'll only be able to access what info is on the generic obdII side. As far as the ve and cat efficiency test go I would not use them to condemn a maf or catalyst. From what I've seen they don't always tell the truth but I do use the test when I've acquired data that leads me to believe one of these is faulty. At this point I'm still acquiring a data base  to know when I can believe the test and when not to so I don't go looking for a problem based on what these tests tell me only to see if they backup what I already know. I think it's been said that the ecm in question knows far more about when cat efficiency is bad than any data we can acquire monitoring sensors. Basicly when I see a bad cat code I go looking for things that may have caused the ecm to make a bad decision and if I can't find anything then I believe the ecm and change the cat. The maf is another story but again I want to see data showing me it's bad other than just the ve test e-scan does. I see lot's of them that don't set a code yet after testing driveability problems they will show up as the culprit
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #12 - Oct 12th, 2007 at 4:13am
 
Rick,
Thanks for the advice, I will keep that in mind. Wink
Best regards
Marc
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Jan Kraakman
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #13 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 3:13am
 
Hi Nerdz  Wink

I found the article online  Smiley
http://www.search-autoparts.com/searchautoparts/Tech+Advisor/Dissecting-the-myst...
Click on the Ignition waveform primer picture Wink
as I don't have the paper magazine available over here.

Jan. Smiley
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« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2007 at 6:00am by Jan Kraakman »  

Jan Kraakman    Zwaag  Netherlands
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Re: Motor Age
Reply #14 - Oct 31st, 2007 at 8:38am
 
[quote ]  As far as the ve and cat efficiency test go I would not use them to condemn a maf or catalyst. From what I've seen they don't always tell the truth but I do use the test when I've acquired data that leads me to believe one of these is faulty [/quote]

I use VE, heck even the scan data load pid, to diagnose MAF sensors and restricted catalysts day in and day out. While there is a 'gray' area... most failures are very obvious.

To my knowledge, there is no fool proof MAF test. It has to be a matter of deduction. GM tried years ago with their CAMS machine and a MAP sensor, but the hydromatic engineers threw a fit as it was VERY hard on the trans.

Is your calculator not taking baro into account?

I'm working on strictly GM products, so if your reasons are due to manufacturer differences, I would be interested in hearing about it when you have time.


Thanks
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