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A Simple Sample Rate Question! (Read 5,222 times)
Dave Hill
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A Simple Sample Rate Question!
Jan 20th, 2008 at 8:14am
 
I have been chatting with a fellow Pico user & the question came up - Why doesn’t the Pico just use the Maximum sample rate available at all times?

The answer seemed quite simple to me to begin with, but the more I thought about it, the more confused I became.

My theory was that, there must be a trade off between sample rate & screen draw (refresh) rate. I expected that when a fast screen draw is required, i.e. an ignition primary, that fewer samples would be better to allow for better performance. On the other extreme I expected a less demanding capture, such as a coolant temp sensor capture over several minutes would handle a greater sample rate as the demand for such a “leisurely” capture is low by comparison.

When I opened Pico 5 & selected the automotive presets I noticed the complete opposite of what I had predicted. Ignition Primary default sample rate is 32,000.  Whereas the coolant temp sensor capture has a low 2,500 sample rate setting.

This has almost certainly been covered in the archives, but I struggle to find an answer that addresses this question precisely.

I understand that Pico 6 has different specs to version 5, but I assume that basic principles still apply.

Sorry if this question is a little trivial.

Dave (Hill)

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Tom Roberts
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Re: A Simple Sample Rate Question!
Reply #1 - Jan 20th, 2008 at 9:11am
 
Dave, the question is not trivial.  This really goes to the heart of how digital storage oscilloscopes work.  We have tools to help you with this:

http://www.autonerdz.com/java/SampleRateCalculator.html

Basically, true sample rate is a function of maximum ADC speed, memory, and capture time.   To visualize this, imagine a scope that can store 512 samples in it's memory and the ADC is capable of 25MHz.  What is your sample rate for a one second capture time?

Answer:  512 samples per second.  It makes no difference that the ADC can go much faster.  There just is no place to put the samples.  You can't overfill the memory. 

So, you either have to slow the ADC down or have some software that will decide which samples will be stored.  The true sample rate is still 512 samples per second.

So what happens with this scope if you cut the capture time down to one half second?

Answer: You just doubled your sample rate to 1024 samples per second.

Same memory, same number of samples, but spread over less time.  Therefore more samples per second.

To achieve better results you have to increase the memory so you can store more samples. 

This is the basic concept.  Obviously it can get more complex with things like shared ADC and memory and multiple channel use.  How memory is managed, and more.

When you use the automotive presets in Pico, or any presets from anyone, the sample rate setting is the preference of the person that made the preset, not how the scope can perform.  The sample rate may be deliberately turned down, or the preset may be from a much less capable model scope.  Or it may be turned up beyond the scopes' ability.  It's just what you are requesting the scope to do.  It will do it's best to comply but true sample rate will rarely match requested exactly.

I hope this was precise enough.  This is covered in way more depth than is possible here, on the Nerd 1 CD.

The Pico 3000 series automotive scopes have a 20MHz ADC and a 512,000 internal sample memory.  Both of these are shared.  You may use these numbers in the sample rate calculator to see performance at any given capture time. 

The rules get bent though, when Pico 6 goes into high speed streaming and uses the PC RAM instead of the internal memory for sample storage.  Now the jump from a one second capture time to a two second capture time results in a 12 times faster sample rate and is not affected by the number of channels in use anymore.  Now we can collect over 8 million samples on a single pass. 

This is where other scopes become a small dot in the rear view mirror.   Shocked
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Dave Hill
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Re: A Simple Sample Rate Question!
Reply #2 - Jan 20th, 2008 at 11:47am
 
Hi Tom

Thanks for that rapid & VERY precise response! I hope I didn't cause any offence with my comment about addressing this subject precisely.

I may need some time to ponder on your reply. Your intellect is way beyond mine. You seem to be able to think in 3D where as I am just getting the hang of 2 dimensional electronics. I am still using the water pipe analogy for understanding vehicle electrics

If you could do a PicoScope for Dummies I would be first in the queue.

Cheers Tom

Dave (Hill)
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jarvissamuel
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Re: A Simple Sample Rate Question!
Reply #3 - Jan 20th, 2008 at 12:20pm
 
Tom

Its a little of topic of pico scope but is there a way to test sample rate for other scopes that do not list there buffer size?  The reason I ask is the at the shop I have access to the otc scope and use it once in awhile it would be kind of nice to know its exact limitations.  Of course with the images it puts out the performance seems pretty poor.

One other question.  The otc scope has a record feature that records 25 (screens?)  when the data is reviewed it possible to just scroll through the entire record does this mean its a seamless record like or is there a way to test this?

Here is a screenshot

Thanks Sam
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OTC_scope.gif (232 KB | )
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Tom Roberts
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Re: A Simple Sample Rate Question!
Reply #4 - Jan 20th, 2008 at 1:39pm
 
Dave,

Quote:
I hope I didn't cause any offence with my comment about addressing this subject precisely.


Not at all.   Smiley

Quote:
Your intellect is way beyond mine.


I doubt that very much.  I'm an average IQ, I just have been doing this a long time.  It was a struggle for me to grasp all this, trust me.

Quote:
If you could do a PicoScope for Dummies I would be first in the queue.


Been done.   Wink

We have an extensive library of PicoScope training in the form of Flash movies, interactive Group Therapy, and a variety of other options available to our Picogroup members.  PicoScope class happens whenever they want it to.  There is something there for the beginner and expert alike.  This package is what makes us different from other suppliers.  It's included free with all the kits we sell.  It is also available by annual subscription for those who did not get their PicoScope kits from us.

Sam,

Quote:
is there a way to test sample rate for other scopes that do not list there buffer size?


Yes, in a round about kind of way.  You need a known signal to test with.  For example, a short pulse in the microseconds range that occurs at regular intervals.  You can then gradually increase the capture time and see at what point the pulse is no longer reliably captured.  Then you know that the samples are farther apart than your pulse.  Then you can estimate the sample interval and calculate the sample rate and estimate the buffer size.  I have done this with the MTS 5100.

I'm sure there is a better way, but unless you can zoom in and see the individual samples and measure them, this is the best I could come up with.

Quote:
does this mean its a seamless record like or is there a way to test this?


Based on your image, I would guess it collects about 256 samples.  I do not believe the OTC screens are seamless.  The buffer is probably equal to the screen resolution and that's it.  if you have no zoom features, there is little point in collecting more samples than your screen has pixels right?  Got a screen res spec?

You can check for screen continuity with known signal inputs so you can see if there are gaps.  If they were seamless there would also be a way to zoom out and see the whole capture like the Modis does.
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