I stumbled across your site in Motor Age and found it both educational and insightful. I am L-1 certified and 2 away from master. I went to tech school, but really didn't gain much useful knowledge.  I lack extensive(but have some) driveability experiance, but am very interested in scopes. I have some time with an ignition scope and can spot odvious KV or burn time problems. A former boss said I have alot of "Book Knowledge, but little pratical knowhow"  

Current shop manager underestimates the value of scopes and mode 6 info. He relies more on genisys to diagnose problems. I tell him that there is important info that the scanner may not give. He tells me that he will bump a car to the dealer if we can't solve the problem in 1 hour. I feel that this is a real downer because we will not grow as a shop or me as a technician. I will only say that this shop is one that specializes in undercar care. I was brought on as a driveability tech to round out the shop services.  

I am looking for advice on diagnostic shortcuts, cronic problem fixes and tool suggestions. Speaking of tools, I would like to ask you all a few questions if I may be so bold. I have been searching the net for computer/laptop based scanners and scopes. I have found some interesting products, but would like to hear from some real techs (not salesmen with pitches) on the useability of these or other products. Auto Enginuity Pro scanner, all Automotive Test Solutions(ATS) products and Pico(of course) are the ones I have found. Other suggestions is welcomed.

When a car comes in to you, what is the first tool you use to diagnose it? driveability with codes and without codes? I know that you verify the problem first, then find out which systems can cause the problem and do a visual check. After the test drive and usual checks, what do you go for next? I ask because I am a little slow in diagnostic and depend on charts to lead me somewhere, but I usually get a "intermittant condition" on those charts which drives me crazy. I m a member of IATN, but currently don't have access to their database or archives.


Thank you for any info and insight you can give to help me be a better tech.     Gary

Hi Gary.

Welcome to Autonerdz.

I am a sponsoring member of IATN and have been for a lot of years.As time has marched on I spend more time here than IATN because my needs have changed and there are a lot of dedicated professionals here that will bend over backwards to help you.Not to say there aren't professionals on IATN I just prefer the atmosphere here better.
That being said spend an entire day reading all of the case studies,such as volumetric efficiency etc. and go out and apply.Will your boss allow you to carry the Genisys home?I have owned a Genisys for a long time and to me is a very good machine.It has a lot of bad qualities that with OE tools I have learned the shortcomings and can use this machine to my advantage.I mainly use it with the 5 gas module now and for the B.O.B features but will pick up my OE scanners first,but then that really depends.In this business it helps to have an OE scanner to work on the brands you specialize in.One thing is you cannot work on everything with one scanner because you will set yourselve up for disaster.
I have AE on laptop and have used it but prefer my other scanners more but it has a lot of strong qualities but is still a generic scanner.
I also have Pico,I am on my second one and this has been one of the better decisions I have ever made.
If you want to bridge the gap quickly then I suggest the Nerd series and Pico and within a year from now you will be amazed at what you can do and what you have learned.
I take it you are young and applaud you for your direction but as many here will tell you dues have to be paid but you can cut yours very short with the right direction and the one decision you made is to be here.That is good.
I am not that far from you as I live in Springville AL.
Perhaps we can meet one day and we can play with various tools so you can see first hand what I am talking about as I own an arsenal of tools that would make the tool man blush.That statement was not meant to be bragging by any means just to tell you I take my profession very serious and if I can ever help let me know.


Ronnie.
Master and L1 also.

Hi Gary

I havent been here too long myself, and I dont own a Pico. But I have been around the site long enough to be able to see the differance a decent 4 channel scope can make. If you explore enough, you can find a lot of information in these pages.

One of the best diagnostic shortcuts Ive found is knowing exactly what causes a code to set. Information is a must, I agree with Sleuth on that

IATN isnt that expensive if you consider what is available, I had been a member for a while, but recently became a sponsoring member, and I believe it has been a worthwhile investment.

As far as tools, Ive had pretty good luck with snapons Solus and Vantage Pro, coupled with Alldata , and access to mitchell if I need it.

Hope to see you around for a while

Qwix

         I agree with you that proof is everything. If my customer is told that he or she ought keep the paper you give them as they CAN show it to other mechanics then the idea is to support your own work. It is disgusting to put parts on a car not knowing if they are the fix.
It is rare though that a customer pursues the market thusly;  many people do not care to handle disputes in this fashion - they just move on... "they dont want to know about you or your paper" .
      It is pathetic when it is because they dont believe you.
As a matter of communication between dedicated technicians then, the paper is priceless; a well meaning but stumped  apprentice can send the work along to a more advanced person and with it goes the valuable diagnosis he HAS done to this moment. The scope capture, scan information, and the diagnosis procedure you followed and the actions you took also ought be sent.
Yeah. I suppose the point is to convey to the customer just that the next tech gets a copy only... it's the trust thing.

Hi Gary

Welcome to autonerdz

The scope in your shop will gather dust unless you take it upon yourself to practice with it on your own time Yea Gary that is how all these guys here learnt, on good cars that didnt need repairing and no money was made.

So at lunch and break time get it out its your time, but if its out on your time it will stay out and get used on the next vehicle you work on.

Mick

Thanks so much guys for your input and thoughts on this subject. As many of you already know, the old school way of diagnosing is on it's way out due to computers, sensors and actuators controlling or monitoring every action of engine. There are some tricks that still work to get a general diagnosis, but will not pinpoint the exact failure, especially with emission failures.

Fisher, you are correct in thinking that the papers that we could give the customer would backup our work. I have seen how some people are more willing to spend the money for repairs if they have some sort proof on paper that the repair is truely needed. And this would set our shop apart from any other in the area. I have been around to other places when I was looking for a job and noticed that the only time the customer get a printout of fault codes or specs. is on their invoice. I have seen this done for Brake Inspections so why not for Diagnostics. We could be the only shop that would give this info before any work is suggested or done. I think this could win over alot of people.

Ronnie, Yes I do have a laptop and was surfing the net for diagnostic software when I came across AE's website. After checking out the video I was impressed with what seemed to be a detailed and user friendly program. This is why I was asking for other tech's input. I know that anyone with a product to sale will make it out to be the best thing ever. I saw other software that looked more like it was designed for the hobbist (EZscan), with basic datastream info but nothing for EGR, EVAP, AIR or VVT systems. Plus it didn't have any override abilities or Mode 6 info.

Mick,  the manager just offered to sale me the shop scope. He knows that I will use it at every oportunity and I am the only one who has any idea of how to use it. I am thinking of jumping on the offer, but I it doesn't have all the accessories that I like and the screen is too small. I am considering taking it though, a fair scope is better than none. I think that Pico's scope would be more user friendy and I would be able to printout a screen shoot which is important to me.

Nick, I don't know if it is a trust issue or just his unwillingness to invest the time needed for a thorough diagnosis. I think he puts way too much emphesis on a quick fix instead of understanding and researching how the computer thinks and how it corrects a skewed sensor. The previous manager was more willing to give my way of thinking a chance. He was an electrician for a while and had a good basic understanding of how the computer will do everything it can to keep the engine running at optimal efficancy. Even when given bad data from a skewed sensor.  He moved back to his home state so this is how the new manager got in. I also like Mode 6 info. I resently attended a class on Diagnosing EGR Systems and learned how Mode 6 can be really useful there.  THe instructor also stated that most excessive flow or incorrect command codes are due to a skewed sensor like MAF, MAP or DPFE. Most insuffecant flow codes are due to carbon buildup in the ports. He stated that if you have an engine running at 2500 RPMs and EGR at 100%, you should have a vacuum drop of 7-8 inches if the ports are clean. Anything less than 7 inches indicates a restricted EGR Port. I saw Indentifix and wondered if it was any good. Your opinion definiately has made me consider it worthwhile. I doubt I could talk the bossman into paying for access due to business being really slow lately. He is a member of IATN but not a paying member.

Here is some more info on myself. After tech school I bounced around for a while, but finally landed at a Cadillac Dealership.This is where I got most of my driveability skill and experiance. I started out as a tech helper, but after about 1 year they put me on my own. I knew I wasn't ready for that, but they said "I would Sink Or Swim". Well, I sank after about 10 months. I got "canned" and found my way to my current shop. This shop was just opening up and needed a tech for all the electrial and check engine problems.

Thank you guys for your opinions. Hearing from REAL TECHNICIANS that understands that even though time is money, detailed and thorough diagnosis will win and retain customers. I get so tired of general diagnosis and it usually become nothing more than parts replacement.


Gary

Hi Jim,

Quote:


Very good point.  I totally agree.  Scanners interface with computers programmed by humans with all the fallibility that goes with that.  So many variables, so many PIDS, so many scanners that may or may not interpret any of it correctly.  Then, it all changes.

The world of scope diagnostics is much more absolute.  The laws of physics don't change and you are not dependent on some software routine written by a vehicle or scanner software engineer to tell you what's happening.  Scope work is so much more direct.  And if the interpretation of the waveform is wrong, you have no one to blame but yourself for missing it.  Sure, scopes can lie, but only if there is an operator error involved.  Once you learn your instrument and it's limitations, you can totally rely on the truth of what you see.  The same can never be said about scanner data.

So, yes.  Scope technique and strategy is much easier to teach, I would think.  Why do you think I chose to teach it   


Quote:


Thank you, Jim.  That means a lot coming from you.

Gary,
Carl is right, Factory scanners open up so much more potential. I attended Linder Tech Networking conference in 2006 . I had heard that factory Scanners are the ticket to quicker diagnosis. After seeing in the seminars the importance of having these tools available, we stepped up as a shop and purchased a Tech2 & NGS. I was blown away by the amount of information that had been hidden from me all these years... Remember I have a Red Brick of my own, We also have a Modis and a Master Tech in our shop. I have heard of certain Shops in the same local banning together to purchase Scanners to share among one another. What an innovative idea... (Could that be done with a PICO SCOPE????). Don't Know if this is a rumor or if someone out there is involved with a group like this... sound off!! Anyway I have seen 1st hand in the aftermarket what we have been missing for years. Gary, it sounds like you are on the right track, you will receive lots of support here, keep plugging away.   Nick