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EScope Any Good? (Read 35,747 times)

Dave Hill

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EScope Any Good?
Apr 19^th, 2010 at 1:44pm

Hi Everyone.

There is an interesting discussion taking place on a UK motor trade forum. We are debating the capability of the EScope that can be seen at... http://automotivetestsolutions.com/scopes.htm (Hope that's OK to include that Tom?)

Although a direct comparison to Pico is not realistic, because with EScope the over all package includes other diagnostic equipment, whereas Pico concentrates on the the Oscilloscope functionality alone. That said, it is possible to look at the Scope aspect of each product.

EScope does have some interesting features, such as "dual time base" capability & 8 channels too, although it is my opinion that the whole scope concept is based around being able to measure events against one another in a single capture.

EScope promotes the value of the ability to view slow events such as an O2 sensor & also a fast injector event simultaneously on one screen. I don't have any problem doing that with Pico to be honest & I can measure the events in the same screen.

There is a "comparison chart" available to view & it does raise some interesting points to discuss......

http://atsnm.com/documents/ATSEScopeProLtdCompare.pdf

I asked Tom if it was OK to raise the topic on here & he was cool about it & welcomed the debate. Hopefully the other main contributor from the UK forum (& others) might add their thoughts & opinions on here too!

It would be great to hear the thoughts from others on Autonerdz crowd. I know that I can count on you guys, giving an impartial & honest opinion.

Regards

Dave Hill

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crackerclicker

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Re: EScope Any Good?
Reply #1 - Apr 19^th, 2010 at 5:16pm

hello dave. i don't have a lot of time right this moment, but i wanted to show a couple things real quick. first, the dual time base is sort of a myth. the first image below is the same capture, but at different timebases at the same time. the next image shows a couple of secondary waves at 50ms/div. after that is the same wave zoomed 230 times on a single event. the third image is the same wave zoomed to 6,000 times on the same event. for the secondary captures i had my sample rate up far enough to get a sample every 100 nano seconds. so between the cursors on the third image is approximately 10 samples (i hope i got the math right

). i don't believe the escope has this kind of power! but if it did i couldn't see paying the price tag it has on it for 4 more channels

by the way, here is a link to a discussion a couple of years ago about the escope vs. the pico: http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1095816560 ; except i think they were discussing the 4 channel version.

dual_time_base.jpg (133 KB | )

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Tom Roberts

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Re: EScope Any Good?
Reply #2 - Apr 19^th, 2010 at 5:30pm

Dave,

We certainly encourage techs to do their homework when looking for a scope.

First of all, the comparison chart you link to is outdated. The PicoScope 3423 isn't even available anymore and has been replaced by the 4000 series.

The EScope does have a lot of interesting features. I don't like the way they clutter up the screen with all the controls and leave little for the scope display, but that's just my opinion.

What's not an opinion is the raw scope capability...

As for the scope capability, it would be suitable for some, maybe even most basic automotive tasks but it's too slow to do a lot of things. Depends on which EScope you are looking at, but let's consider the most powerful one The EScope Pro:

It has a single 1MHz ADC that would be divided by the number of channels in use. This means that you would really only be able to look at secondary with one channel at maximum speed and get the detail, if you consider that 1mHz real time sample rate is needed for secondary. In any case, no matter what you did, you would never be able to look at 500KHz CAN much less high speed CAN or Flex Ray communication.

The EScope limited can only achieve 48KHz max speed, which is also divided my the number of active channels. This makes it pretty useless for all but the most basic automotive signals.

The neat features don't mean much if the power is just not there.

Also on the chart is a 4 million point buffer on the EScope Pro. That's very good.

But consider the PicoScope 4423 with dual 80MHz ADCs and 32 million point internal buffer and over 80 million when streaming to PC RAM.

That's like racing a VW bug against a Masarati. Just no comparison.

As for the dual time base thing....Really irrelevant and unnecessary with a Pico because you can have two signals of very different frequencies on the same screen and see all the detail in both. There is no need for a dual time base. It sounds neat though. Unfortunately, you would lose the signal relationships if you are doing dual time base. Much better to do on one screen where the signals are related in time.

Yes, the EScope is 16 bit but I don't consider that a leg up. 12 bits is plenty of vertical resolution, 16 bits does not make it better for automotive. Where it lacks is in horizontal resolution....samples per second.

So, it really depends on what you are going to do with a scope how much power you need. Many, I'm sure, would be quite satisfied with the EScope. It's better than a lot of them out there so you could sure do a lot worse.

I'm sure if I have mane any factual misstatements here someone will correct me. Wink

Tom Roberts
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john racic

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Re: EScope Any Good?
Reply #3 - Apr 19^th, 2010 at 6:21pm

Dave

Several points come to mind

First, the comparison chart you have linked to compares the Escope to the out of production 3423 scope, not to the currect 4423 scope, which is indeed much more powerful, with substantially higher specs. For example the spec for maximum sample rate, which I feel is one of the most important specs, is actually 80MS/s, not the 20 MS/s in the chart. (Escope's is 1MS/s)

They are also WAY off on the sample point memory buffer spec. The 4423 has a 32 MB sample point buffer, not 512K. Escope's is 4MB.

Wrong again on the Direct Secondary Connection. They list an optional kit, pico has that too.

Bit unfair on the built in high voltage attenuator also. Pico's comes in the box and screws right onto the BNC. Better method in my opinion, it's there when you need it, but when you don't you get max resolution on the screen.

So the 4423 has 80 times the sampling rate and 8 times the sample point memory buffer as the Escope?

Seems like that ends a lot of arguements!

If my math is off, someone please kindly correct.

Also noticed the chart is a BIT biased! For example, the ATS, between the 2 models, has the absolute worst, and the second to worst max sample rate, but they still show the one for the Pro in green. That's not BEST, in reality it's worst, or very close.

We do this all day long, with the Picos. And in all this time we have only had one occasion where we needed (wanted is a better word, we love to play!) more than 4 channels. It was a Dodge Dakota, and we were trying to find what quit first when it would suddenly shut down. So we wanted CKP, reference voltage, ground, power supplies, etc. DUH, so we hooked up 2 Pico 4423s! 2 computers, 2 scopes, and we got everything we wanted. As long as we had a common channel for reference it is easy to put them together. The refernce waveform function makes this easy!

Had we wanted to go even further we could have thrown the Modis into the mix, and had 12 channels. That would still leave the 4 Genisys channels sitting unused in the drawer. For those who have used a Genisys scope, that is, in my oopinion, the absolute best place to leave it.

Oh, and for the 99.99% of the time when we don't need more than 4 channels we can use the scopes on 2 cars at the same time. Kind of an advantage over the escope, isn't it?

But like all things there is no best scope. What there really is is the scope that you have learned to use the best. That's what fixs cars and makes money to support your family!

John and Mike

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john racic Guru Member Picogroup Offline Posts: 270	Re: EScope Any Good? Reply #4 - Apr 19^th, 2010 at 6:27pm My apologizes! I was typing slowly and printing reference charts to make sure my post was accurate, and in that time Tom, who knows all this stuff very well (obviously!) posted in the middle. I did not mean to duplicate anything Tom said! Sorry!
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Dave Hill

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Re: EScope Any Good?
Reply #5 - Apr 22^nd, 2010 at 6:01am

Thanks all for your replies.

It is always interesting to hear about other products I think, especially when, like me, Pico is the only scope ever owned. I have messed around with the Snap-on Modis & Vantage Pro, & found the experience quite frustrating, as you have to capture events fully zoomed & then zoom out to get an overview. Very wierd I think.

There is a guy in the UK that is very impressed with the EScope, to the point that he is looking at becoming a distributor for AST products. I am looking forward to seeing how he gets on, once he has used the tool.

Thanks again guys!

Cheers

Dave

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Tom Roberts

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Re: EScope Any Good?
Reply #6 - Apr 22^nd, 2010 at 9:26am

Hi Dave,

We have discussed many different scopes on these forums over time. Since you mention the Snap-On products, you might find this recent thread of interest:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1265231719

A lot of guys love the EScope. Your friend might do well with that.

There are all kinds of opinions and personal preferences out there on scopes. Some of them are based on dis-information or misunderstanding and others are very legitimate. I try to separate the opinions and preferences from the debate. After all, you have to like the scope you have or you won't use it much. A less capable scope that is used regularly is much better then a more powerful one that gathers dust. Roll Eyes

I try to focus on the specs and promote an understanding of what the specs mean when it comes to the most important aspect of a DSO...real time sample rate. Not theoretical sample rate or equivalent time sample rate or even max sample rate, but the actual sample rate you will experience in the field using the equipment for real.

Real time sample rate is a function of capture time, max ADC speed, and record length. It's just math. Math is not subjective and facts are facts. You can discuss facts and math but you cannot argue them away.

Our goal is to educate techs about lab scope capability. Once they understand that, then they can decide among the many scopes out there which ones can do the job. That's a short list. Then they can decide from that short list which features they want and what they like.

To that end, we have this page with our sample rate calculator:

http://www.autonerdz.com/java/SampleRateCalculator.html

Obviously we sell PicoScope, but the last thing we need is customers that are not happy with PicoScope. So, we will direct you to another product if we feel that PicoScope is not for you. maybe you work outside in the weather or something. Pico not good for that. Undecided

Tom Roberts
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Rick Hill

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Re: EScope Any Good?
Reply #7 - Apr 22^nd, 2010 at 10:11am

Dave I own an e scope. It's not a bad scope but it has shortcomings when compared with the pico. I seldom use it anymore and I'd sell it and the e ignition to go with it. Mine is the first version which has been rendered more or less obsolete at this point by the e-scope pro. The e-scope pro has an improved sample rate and I believe it will work with newer windows systems where as mine will only work with xp which is getting harder to find. You can't use the e-scope at long time bases because you'll lose the resolution so you need to record at short time bases and take it to the deep record screen to analyze a longer time. Because of this there is no sense in using a trigger because it will make the deep record view skip portions of the recording time if recorded in the dual scope mode. For that reason using the strip chart roll function is the only way to end up with a recording of ten seconds or more with any resolution. If recording in the deep record mode then it automatically defaults to the strip chart roll mode no matter the setting in the dual scope mode but you will find shorter time base setting will produce better resolution.The e-scope has other functions besides the scope which are sometimes handy.
You should have your friend compare the two and I think he will see that because of the pico's superior sample rate and scaling you can do many things with a pico you'd never be able to do with the e-scope.

Rick Hill

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Dave Hill Freshman Member Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 45 Leicestershire England England Gender:	Re: EScope Any Good? Reply #8 - Apr 24^th, 2010 at 4:49am Thanks both for your excellent replies! Have a good weekend Dave
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Tom Roberts

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Re: EScope Any Good?
Reply #9 - Apr 24^th, 2010 at 11:16am

Dave,

I noticed a question on that forum you mentioned about how the EScope would do on CAN. The short answer is it wouldn't do. I didn't really want to post over there on someone else's turf...besides, I want techs to come here for answers Wink

The scope math tells us how the EScope performance would be and I thought I would share a couple of images.

The first one is a 200ms CAN capture with a Pico 4423. We really need to see CAN high and low. That takes two channels. Since Pico has two ADCs, each channel here is sampling simultaneously at 40 MHz real time. This makes for a sample interval of 25 billionths of a second. The signals are represented accurately and I have also shown some CAN decoding. This is 500 kbit CAN from a 2009 Miata so this isn't even high speed CAN.

The second image shown is with the sample rate turned down to 645 kHz per channel. This is actually a little faster than would be possible for the EScope. The single 1 MHz ADC would have to be shared between two channels (if you want to preserve the time relationship), which would result in a 500 kHz max speed on each channel. Note how distorted the signals are and how the CAN is no longer able to be decoded. The signals are not represented accurately.

The bottom two images are a closer look.

Point being, the scope you choose depends on what you want to be able to do. If you want to be able to look at CAN, the EScope is not the one you would want to choose.

can.gif (72 KB | )

dummydowncan.gif (69 KB | )

can2.gif (67 KB | )

dummydowncan2.gif (64 KB | )

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Dave Hill

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Re: EScope Any Good?
Reply #10 - Jul 2^nd, 2010 at 2:37pm

Hi Tom

Thanks for taking the time to demonstrate the differences between the two scopes. With hindsight you were right not to get drawn into anything on the UK forum. It all got a little heavy, as not everyone appreciates the benefit of Picoscope & many members became tired of the debate. You can't win them all hey!

Every day I am blown away with what I achieve with Pico. However I often wish that I had experience of other scopes, so that I could speak with an informed opinion on the subject. As it stands, I have a very biased opinion, as I cut my teeth on Pico. I have messed a little with the Snap-On scopes & I found the experience very frustrating & kind of backwards to the way I approach the scoping process.

In conversation recently with a well-known & respected authority on the subject, I mentioned that I thought Snap-On's method of operation was backwards. The response I got was "No. It is Pico that does it backwards!" Undecided

As it stands, I have no real alternative experience & therefore nothing to debate with.

I don't think this was meant as a derogatory remark though, but it did make me question whether it is Pico that has "bucked the trend" & taken a rather unique & perhaps fresh approach to DSO capture & manipulation of waveforms.

I am sure we all know how it feels to part with your money & be totally blown away with your purchase, only to later on witness a superior product, which makes your new toy look rather ordinary. Like listening to a JVC sound system & then a Bang & Olufsen. I feel pretty confident that I am using the B & O equivalent of scope, when I use Pico!

Cheers again Tom

Dave

PS. I must find time to complete the “Different scopes..” thread that I started a month or so ago. It has been crazy busy lately!

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Re: EScope Any Good?
Reply #11 - Jul 2^nd, 2010 at 3:37pm

Dave Hill wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2010 at 2:37pm:

In conversation recently with a well-known & respected authority on the subject, I mentioned that I thought Snap-On's method of operation was backwards. The response I got was "No. It is Pico that does it backwards!" As it stands, I have no real alternative experience & therefore nothing to debate with.

i've used snap on for many years, and never liked their method. always felt it was backwards. i brought that up awhile back in another discussion/forum with a respected authority and was told the same thing as you about how snappy has it right. guess it's all personal preference.

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ToddS Freshman Member Offline Posts: 1 Santa Barbara California USA Gender:	Re: EScope Any Good? Reply #12 - Feb 14^th, 2011 at 7:10pm Rick, you still have the escope and igniton for sale and how much?
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