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Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization (Read 154,515 times)
Doug S.
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Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Feb 21st, 2004 at 7:19am
 
Tom,
In your classes and on the website, you talk about Ford Camshaft Position Sensor synchronization.  There are pictures of how it appears with the Fluke 97 (I believe) on the website.  Do you have any pictures as it appears with the Picoscope and can you discuss this a little for people that have never synchronized one?  Thanks, Ziggee.
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #1 - Feb 21st, 2004 at 9:47am
 
Sure, Ziggee  Wink

Here is how the CKP and CMP look:

...

The crank signal is a 36 minus one tooth ring and the missing tooth is at 60 degrees BTDC, for a 6 cyl.  The sensor is a floating ground type VRS, so be sure to stab the correct wire so the signal is 'right side up'.  The signal should rise in the missing tooth region when you have it right.  The center of each tooth is 10 degrees.  The signal crosses zero going negative as the center of a tooth aligns.  Don't be concerned that the signal 'floats' a bit above ground.  This is normal because it's a floater and we have the scope referenced to vehicle ground.

The Cam signal is a hall effect 180 degree signal.  It's high for one crank rotation and low for the next.

We can set these up with the CMP rising or falling edge.

...

Here, we use the rising edge.

...

Here we have added the degree markings.  The rising edge of the cam signal should be at 26 ATDC #1 so 180 degrees of cam rotation later it will fall at 26 ATDC #5.

The cam sensor can be installed 180 degrees out and the signal will look perfect and the PCM will not know the difference but inject fuel at the wrong cylinder at the wrong time.

You can use compression #1 or #5 to set these up. Just be sure the CMP falls ATDC #5 and rises ATDC #1. I rough them in by hand then do the fine adjustment with the scope, engine running. In some applications, like the Windstar, rather than shedding blood to remove the #1 plug, I just use #5. Keeping in mind that the CMP vane should be leaving the sensor instead of entering it as it would be for #1 compression.

This procedure works for any EDIS 6 cyl with a hall effect cam sensor.
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« Last Edit: Jan 12th, 2023 at 8:54am by Brian Haley »  

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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #2 - Feb 21st, 2004 at 2:38pm
 
Hi Tom,

The above waves show the HALL switch type of CAM sensor in relation to the VRS CRANK sensor.
Any chance that you can show a relationship with the VRS CRANK sensor and the VRS CAM sensor as used on some Fords, if you have one in your archives that is ?
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #3 - Feb 21st, 2004 at 4:43pm
 
OK Romain,

The negative going edge of the VRS type CMP is located at 22 degrees ATDC #1. 

...

The above is typical six cylinder sync.  It's more difficult to be exact here, but we have some tolerance.

...

The above is an example from a 1.9 four cylinder.  This one is not adjustable.  Also, on the four cyl, the missing tooth on the CKP is at 90 degrees BTDC.
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #4 - Feb 21st, 2004 at 8:00pm
 
Thanks Tom, I have not encountered one to use the PICO scope on, I did some reading and discovered that the PCM reads the signal where the wave is going negative to a point just below the 0 line.
just wondered why not at the 0 line.
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #5 - Feb 21st, 2004 at 8:31pm
 
Hi Romain,

Where the PCM trigggers has to do with it's own internal circuitry.  I don't know the whys.

Carl contributed a couple more I thought were interesting.

...

The above capture is a V8.  The missing tooth area is at 50 degrees BTDC for the V8.  We are still using the 36 minus one CKP.

...

This one is the V10.  The CKP is a 40 minus one tooth CKP and the missing tooth is at 36 degrees BTDC.  So we'll count 9 degrees for a tooth and that puts this VRS CMP at about 26 ATDC.  I don't think these are adjustable either.

You'll be fine shooting for 26 degrees ATDC for either the Hall effect style or the VRS style CMP when adjustment is possible.
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #6 - Feb 7th, 2006 at 3:31pm
 
Hi everyone,
I was wondering if you can just use another scope channel on secondary ignition number one or number five instead of pulling a plug to confirm compression on one or five being that the computer maintains spark firing order timed off the missing tooth on crank  even without a cam signal present at all       God forbid I wouldnt want to do things the hard way!!!! Wink     I realize the timing would float around some so it cant be used as a reference point for actually setting the sensor but it would be a quicker way of getting the up or down  direction right on the cam sensor would it not???????
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #7 - Feb 7th, 2006 at 4:15pm
 
Absolutely!  This procedure was written for two channel scope use.  The advantage of a third channel allows you to see where the compression firing is so you know at a glance where the engine is in its cycle:

...
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #8 - Feb 8th, 2006 at 7:59am
 
hail the King.
thanks never done it but was wondering and there you have it!!!!!also that uses multistrike cool!
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #9 - Feb 8th, 2006 at 12:19pm
 
That's from a 2001 Windstar 3.8 IEDIS.  It multistrikes at idle and low RPM.

Keep in mind though that you can't do this with many scopes.  The sample rate has to be high enough to reliably detect the secondary KV at longer time bases, when multiple channels are being used.  The KV event may be only 10 millionths of a second (microseconds) wide.  If the samples are not close enough together you can't rely on identifying the compression KV event.


At this setting the PicoScope 3423 is sampling every 1.6 microseconds so it's not a problem.  We could put even more time on the screen, if we wanted.

You should be able to accomplish something similar with your Modis using a 1ms screen time.


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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #10 - Mar 8th, 2006 at 9:34am
 
More on hook up logistics when working with floating ground VR sensors:

Incorrect scope hook up can create problems with the
vehicle or even cause a no start condition. Ford EDIS cam
sync is a great example. The CKP is a floater and the CMP
is either a hall effect or a non-floating VRS. The common
mistake is to hook a channel input and ground across the
CKP. That works fine if that is the only channel you intend
to use and you will get an accurate representation of the
CKP amplitude. But that doesn't help you sync. You have to
use another channel on the CMP. But your scope is now
grounded to something generating voltage ;-p If you use
another channel, weird things are going to happen. This is
because, on most scopes, the channels share that common
ground. The CKP voltage will cross feed through the scope
to someplace it shouldn't be.

The correct method is to reference all channels to vehicle
ground and back probe only one of the CKP wires with your
scope channel input. You must choose the correct wire so
your waveform is right side up to get your degree count
right. The other wire provides a pattern that is inverted
and will throw off your crank degree count. Hooking up this
way will allow you to use multiple channels with no
problems. However, it will make the CKP waveform reduced in
true peak to peak amplitude and it will appear to 'float'
above the ground line when the scope is DC coupled. Neither
of these issues is a problem if you are looking to sync the
CKP/CMP.

If you are looking to measure the CKP peak to peak volts,
however, this will not do. You will have to dedicate one
channel to this task and hook channel signal and ground
across the sensor to get this information. No other
channels should be deployed.

So, how you hook up depends on the information you want.

Non floating sensors like the EDIS VRS CMP have the signal
present on only one of the wires and display accurate peak
to peak results with the scope referenced to vehicle
ground. So, these do not require a separate hook up to get
this information.
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #11 - Sep 24th, 2007 at 8:46pm
 
Hay Tom,

This is cool for a ford. How about the same thing for a  1999 G.M 4.6 liter Northstar Cadillac Engine for something different. Also do you have pico scope wave forms for the 4x and 24x reference signals (4 ref high and 24x crnk that are sent to the pcm for ignition control. Camshaft reference (ref. lo/cam high) sent to the pcm for fuel injection control, or anything other functions associated with the ICM.

Thanks,

Danny B.
Smiley

Getting sleepy going to bed Wink Hope to read abput it later Smiley


Tom Roberts wrote on Feb 21st, 2004 at 9:47am:
Sure, Ziggee  Wink

Here is how the CKP and CMP look:

[img]

The crank signal is a 36 minus one tooth ring and the missing tooth is at 60 degrees BTDC, for a 6 cyl.  The sensor is a floating ground type VRS, so be sure to stab the correct wire so the signal is 'right side up'.  The signal should rise in the missing tooth region when you have it right.  The center of each tooth is 10 degrees.  The signal crosses zero going negative as the center of a tooth aligns.  Don't be concerned that the signal 'floats' a bit above ground.  This is normal because it's a floater and we have the scope referenced to vehicle ground.

The Cam signal is a hall effect 180 degree dignal.  It's high for one crank rotation and low for the next.

We can set these up with the CMP rising or falling edge.

[img]

Here, we use the rising edge.

[img]

Here we have added the degree markings.  The rising edge of the cam signal should be at 26 ATDC #1 so 180 degrees of cam rotation later it will fall at 26 ATDC #5.

The cam sensor can be installed 180 degrees out and the signal will look perfect and the PCM will not know the difference but inject fuel at the wrong cylinder at the wrong time.

You can use compression #1 or #5 to set these up. Just be sure the CMP falls ATDC #5 and rises ATDC #1. I rough them in by hand then do the fine adjustment with the scope, engine running. In some applications, like the Windstar, rather than shedding blood to remove the #1 plug, I just use #5. Keeping in mind that the CMP vane should be leaving the sensor instead of entering it as it would be for #1 compression.

This procedure works for any EDIS 6 cyl with a hall effect cam sensor.

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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #12 - Sep 24th, 2007 at 10:47pm
 
Hi Danny,

I don't have much Northstar stuff but I'm sure someone does.   Wink
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #13 - Sep 25th, 2007 at 6:50am
 
I just did a quick search of the iATN waveform library. There are captures of 99 4.6 Cadillac cam/crank. The ones I saw were Modis but I didn't look for very long.
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #14 - Sep 25th, 2007 at 8:09am
 
Tom here is an ford 5.4  3 valve with variable cam timing.  I haven't figured out what fords logic was in where they placed this one. Those with vct  will have the number of signals equal to the number of cylinders on the bank plus one in one full revolution of the cam or 2 revolutions of the crank.  The 2.0 four cylinder z tech will have a signal like this v8 .  Four cylinders plus one equal to 5 signals. On the z tech the first wave will fall at about 22 degrees atc for #1 and #4. The set with 3 waves will be at tdc compression for #1 and the set with 2 waves will be at tdc compression for #4. That seems to go right along with the other ford vrs cam sensors being at 22 degrees atc but this v8  seems to not go along with that logic. The second wave in the set of three is close.  This cam is installed quite a bit advanced and the second wave in the set of three might come out right when the cam is retarded to where the bottom timing is straight up. It's a sohc motor and it's advanced I assume because they are using the cam as an egr in the retarded position and to move the torque curve in the advanced position so it's kind of dual purpose.
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #15 - Sep 25th, 2007 at 9:14am
 
Hi Danny

I have what you need  SmileyI had the very vehicle in for quick service customer wait Smiley so did some captures for you please hold on will I upload the for you Roll Eyes

Mick
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #16 - Sep 25th, 2007 at 9:38am
 
That's interesting, Rick.  VCT is different but your sync is not at all like the Z-Tech.  Here is an example of one in an Escort.  The first cam pulse is synced to about 20 deg ATDC.
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escortvct.gif (88 KB | )
escortvct.gif

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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #17 - Sep 25th, 2007 at 9:49am
 
Hi Danny

Now that didnt take long lets see if I did the upload right

Do you have a Pic 4 Channel?

Mick
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #18 - Sep 25th, 2007 at 11:57am
 
Tom your capture of thre escort is what I expected this v8 to look like given the information I've read about the ford vct. You'll notice the second wave in the set of three is close at about 10* atc. I haven't found anymore information as to just what it's supposed to be for this application but I know this has no codes for cam synch problems.  Here is one with the actuator grounded and the cam in full retard position.
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #19 - Sep 25th, 2007 at 2:39pm
 
On those VRS cam sensors, the first two; are the cam signals from a bad sensor? There are some gnarly bumps...
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #20 - Sep 25th, 2007 at 6:38pm
 
No I don't have a scope at all yet. I will get one eventually.

Thanks for the captures. I have a disk with cam and crank relationships but withou being able to zoom in like you did it did not make any since. Your wave forms cleared up the confusion. I was looking for the 24x and 4x reference signals. Smiley

I have some notes from GM stating: creates a camshaft reference signal(1/2x cam high) sent to the PCM for fuel injection control. This is in reference to the ignition control module. Can you shed any light on that for me?
Roll Eyes


Thanks,

Mick

I am intersested in the autumotive diagnostic and amazed at what you can see through the eyes of a scope. I may dable in this as a hobby when I retire in a few years. I have been involved in the electrical field of engineering for almost 40 years. Spent 3 years in the Army repairng Radio Relay Carrier euipment and Designed Power Substations and Transmission Lines for 36 Years.

I like your Motto: Always learning

THanks,

Danny




Mick wrote on Sep 25th, 2007 at 9:49am:
Hi Danny

Now that didnt take long lets see if I did the upload right

Do you have a Pic 4 Channel?

Mick

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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #21 - Jan 28th, 2008 at 11:51am
 
This post is a life saver.  Thanks for the discussion!
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #22 - Jan 28th, 2008 at 1:56pm
 
Here is a brand new ford cam synchronizer in a 95 ranger 3.0 from ford that I installed today. From this it's plain to see why they went to the vr sensors.  This machining error wouldn't matter on a vr sensor. Smiley
 Looks like about a 12 degree error should I take a file and finish their job or just leave it?  I think in this case if ford didn't care I don't either. SmileyThe vane is longer in duration than the blank side.  Smiley
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #23 - Jan 28th, 2008 at 4:41pm
 
Yeah, Rick.  I've noticed that before.  It's not all that critical.  As long as the CMP transitions well within the PIP high window, your good to go.   Wink

Nice to be as exacting as possible though just because   Cool

Mike,

Glad you found this one useful.  You would be surprised at what you can find in here  Wink
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #24 - Dec 25th, 2008 at 11:34am
 
Rick

Here is one that is even worse than yours.
I did not work on this vehicle but did get a chance to scope it
It was installed 180* out of sync as well as being no good.
this one was an aftermarket unit

Wilf
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #25 - Feb 1st, 2009 at 9:01am
 
Rick

Quote:
Looks like about a 12 degree error should I take a file and finish their job or just leave it?  I think in this case if ford didn't care I don't either. The vane is longer in duration than the blank side.   


Can you help me out a bit here Rick.
I have been seeing a lot of these sensors and they are not equally low and high a great persentage of the time. I can't find any info that states any other section ofthe cmp sensor signal besides the transition from low to hi is used for anything. If that is correct then it does not matter al all about the on / off time relationship.
The cmp could be no more than a spike in the propper position to sync the injectors. 
I will modify a syncronizer and install it in  3.0L next chance that I get.

Tell me what you think or fill me in if I am dead wrong

Wilf
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #26 - Feb 1st, 2009 at 9:26am
 
Wilf I think you're probably right. It would be interesting to see if it looks at the falling edge though.  Say the falling edge was only about 30-40 degrees after the rising edge would it affect the misfire counter and injector sync , just one or the other or none. Notice how with the vr sensors if it's advanced to the point the rising edge is at or before pip it doesn't see the falling edge. IOW if it doesn't see the rising edge before the falling edge it doesn't see any of it. Same as if you revered the polarity on the vr sensor. Smiley

PS I was looking back through this thread and I see I put up two captures of a 5.4 vct system,reply #14 and #18. I don't know why I didn't mention it but one of those cams is 360* out of time. It didn't run that bad either for an engine with a broken exhaust valve spring.
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #27 - Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:57pm
 
the 3 valve triton is one I would use alot have them all the time with phaser and chain guide problems it apaers here the cam sensors mirror each other and this engine has two chains so am I right too assume all I need too do is sync the cam sensors if they dont mirror each other bingo
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #28 - Jun 13th, 2013 at 9:05am
 
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #29 - Mar 31st, 2022 at 6:36pm
 
Tom Roberts wrote on Feb 21st, 2004 at 4:43pm:
 

[img]

The above is typical six cylinder sync.  It's more difficult to be exact here, but we have some tolerance.




What is considered a "typical six cylinder"? 3.8/4.0? Which years specifically?

I am working on a bit of a mutt myself...



Jeremy
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #30 - Apr 1st, 2022 at 5:46am
 
Wagonman88 wrote on Mar 31st, 2022 at 6:36pm:
Tom Roberts wrote on Feb 21st, 2004 at 4:43pm:
 

[img]

The above is typical six cylinder sync.  It's more difficult to be exact here, but we have some tolerance.




What is considered a "typical six cylinder"? 3.8/4.0? Which years specifically?

I am working on a bit of a mutt myself...



Jeremy



The engines this tread is referring to are the V6s before DOHC with VCT/VVT. It applies to 3.0 3.8 4.0 and 4.2 engines for sure.

If you're dealing with a specific issue you should consider posting in the General Technical Discussion thread (https://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=tech)
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #31 - Aug 28th, 2022 at 11:04am
 
TrevorSchlientz wrote on Apr 1st, 2022 at 5:46am:
Wagonman88 wrote on Mar 31st, 2022 at 6:36pm:
Tom Roberts wrote on Feb 21st, 2004 at 4:43pm:
 

[img]

The above is typical six cylinder sync.  It's more difficult to be exact here, but we have some tolerance.




What is considered a "typical six cylinder"? 3.8/4.0? Which years specifically?

I am working on a bit of a mutt myself...



Jeremy



The engines this tread is referring to are the V6s before DOHC with VCT/VVT. It applies to 3.0 3.8 4.0 and 4.2 engines for sure.

If you're dealing with a specific issue you should consider posting in the General Technical Discussion thread (https://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=tech)


I am dealing with a DOHC without VCT/VVT so I assume this would still apply...

What I am officially dealing with is a Mazda KL 2.5 V6 that adopted a Ford EEC in about 1999 for a few years, however no one has written code on the Quarterhorse side for this particular version of the EEC. My thought is to grab a 4.0 OHC EEC and utilize it on this engine as the codes have been written for a few of them.

What I'm trying to sort is mainly the CKP pickup. I have yet to verify any offsets or otherwise. What I do know is that it utilizes a 26-1 CKP trigger and a single pin CMP. Both sensors are 3 wire, unsure if VR or hall effect however...

I do NOT have the vehicle running currently to check the signals with the stock EEC.



Jeremy
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Wagonman88
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Re: Ford CMP vs. CKP synchronization
Reply #32 - Sep 23rd, 2022 at 4:11pm
 
To correct a typo above, I meant to say I'm trying to sort out a CMP pickup, not CKP. CKP is the same as most of the Ford EDIS setups.



Jeremy
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