The next generation of PicoScope automotive scopes has been announced.

The new 4425 four channel and 4225 two channel scopes are not yet available and there is no current software for them available to users.

So, the announcement seems a bit premature but they will be along shortly with a new software release, hopefully....

We have a bunch of new kits on order and will soon have some web pages up where you can pre-order.

Although the scope itself is being marketed at the same price as the old one, the kit contents from Pico have been changed.  Some important contents have been eliminated and kit pricing has increased on some kits.  Naturally, we are building the kits up with more added hardware but this means a modest price increase over the previous packages.

The 4423 PicoQuad kits will continue to be available while supplies last.

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2 questions, Tom.

What type of performance increase, if any, are we expecting from the new scopes?

Will captures taken with a new scope open up on the software that we already have, or will an additional software program be needed to view those files when someone with a new scope inevitably posts one?

Do you think this will be available before year end?

This scope will use the same PicoScope software but there is not a release or beta version currently available to the public that has the drivers for it.  Now that the new scope has been announced though, I'm sure we will see a new build very soon that supports it.

The performance increase is mostly in block mode.  Of course, longer block mode screen times mean longer periods of a blank screen as data is collected over a longer time.  Sample buffer has increased from 32 million samples to 250 million.

There has been little or no increase in performance in streaming modes and using the USB 3.0 also did not increase steaming mode speeds.

The main operational difference is the independent floating inputs.  Grounds are not common so all channel grounds must be attached.  This does allow you to place a channel across a signal without disrupting another channel or causing a ground loop.  So, completely different hookup logistics.

Spence wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:04am:

Do you think this will be available before year end?

Yes.   We have them on order but no one knows where they are.   ::)

If I had to make a guess, I would say a couple of weeks.

However, often with a new product like this there is a lag in availability as production ramps up.  So, at first, quantities may be limited.

Nice

Looks like channel BNC's are further apart from each other.
Easier to put attenuators on:)

Looks like you'll be re-designing The protective Autonerdz covers too.
I see the channels are up-t to 200V very nice
http://www.picoauto.com/support/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10231&view=unread#unread

KarlW wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:40am:

Looks like you'll be re-designing The protective Autonerdz covers too.

There won't be any new covers.  The rubber baby buggy bumpers that come on the scope are nice.


KarlW wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:40am:

I see the channels are up-t to 200V very nice

Yes and also a 100 MHz ADC for each channel.

We have a prototype here that we deliberately tried to destroy doing things with it that might actually happen in the field.  We were not successful.   :)

Tom Roberts wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 11:13am:

We have a prototype here that we deliberately tried to destroy

Man I am jealous of that part of your job.

I LOVE pushing things too far and seeing where they break. :)

As long as I didn't have to pay for it, of course ;)

Will this be in addition to the older style 4000 series or will there be a phase out of the older style?

If it is a phase out do you anticipate any deals on the older style, like Pico did with some of the test & measurement scopes?  Somebody had to ask ::)

Is there any news on syncing two Pico scopes with the same software yet?

Thanks Sam

jarvissamuel wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Will this be in addition to the older style 4000 series or will there be a phase out of the older style?

The older style will be available while supplies last but be phased out.


jarvissamuel wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

do you anticipate any deals on the older style,

No.  The new kits are going to be more expensive anyway, so the 4423 kits are still a great deal while they last.  No reason to feel bad about recently purchasing a kit either.  In spite of the upgraded specs, these really don't perform any better at all in streaming mode.  And, the hookup logistics are not as simple.

Block mode performance is 5-8x better but in order to make use of that, you have to wait through the blank screen for the entire capture (maybe minutes) time before you stop the scope or you lose all.  This will take some getting used to.  There was no practical reason to use block mode past a one second capture time with the 4423 scope so that was just never an issue.

I think part of the reason for some of the changes in the input architecture was compliance with some of the Euro regulations.

This is surely a fine piece of scope.  However...I'll shoot myself in the foot here, but I really don't see a really compelling reason to upgrade from the previous models.


jarvissamuel wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Is there any news on syncing two Pico scopes with the same software yet?

Sorry, no.

Tom Roberts wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:09am:

positive reviews are earned.  We would never offer a review that we could not feel honest about.

Tom Roberts wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:

I'll shoot myself in the foot here, but I really don't see a really compelling reason to upgrade from the previous models.

Hence the reason we all buy from you in the first place ;)

There are some cool things you could do with the floating inputs on some things.

Like this....

Note the throttle motor voltage is displayed going both positive and negative because we can place channel A input and ground across the motor with no concerns about crossing stuff up or creating a ground loop.

I would post the data file but you would not be able to open it.   :(

This kind of thing might be the best reason to have one of these.  But really, how often are you really going to need to do this?  Still kinda cool though.   ;)

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Tom,

With the new scope do you anticipate the automotive version getting the waveform generator that the test & measurement stuff has?

Talking about independent grounds it might be handy for some of the VVT stuff as well.

Sam

jarvissamuel wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 10:29am:

Tom, With the new scope do you anticipate the automotive version getting the waveform generator that the test & measurement stuff has? Talking about independent grounds it might be handy for some of the VVT stuff as well. Sam

The waveform generator is a hardware feature, the 4824 8-channel is one example.  When the appropriate hardware is connected, the software will show the related buttons.  The 4425 does not have a waveform generator feature.

Any other features that make this  scope stand out?  Doesn't look that different from the previous model.

I was going to point out that the independent floating grounds would actually be a nice thing. I always make a point of grounding all my leads at battery neg. anyway. If anyone buys one and finds the floating inputs too annoying, I will gladly trade my lightly used 4423 with them (just sayin'). Don't expect too many takers on that offer though. -Ward- :)

I am second in line for that deal behind you, Ward.

busjockey wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 8:08pm:

Any other features that make this  scope stand out?

The 200v input is nice. 

The connect detect is also may be useful but does not work with all signal probing like O2.

It does have more power under the hood with the 250M memory and the 100MHz ADC for each channel.  Keep in mind that my performance comments earlier were based on early software versions (the first build didn't even see all of the memory in the scope).  Remember when they made the 4423 scopes streaming 10x more powerful with a free software upgrade?  Just sayin...could happen.  But, as I always say, never buy a tool for what it might do in the future.  Buy only for what it does now.

The floating inputs must be mentioned again.  No more ground loops.  Floating ground sensors can now be measured using a single channel (and still use other channels).  Keep in mind the ground potentials need to be kept within about 30v of each other.  Not something you'll need every day but nice when you do.

For those that want one of these, I think we are getting the entire first production run for the continent in a couple of weeks.  So supplies will be limited at first.  Brian has the web pages up now so you can make a pre-order and get in line.  When production ramps up, the supply chain will be smoother.  Most of that we are getting are kits.  Very few single scope units.

But for those that already have a 4423, it's surely not a must have.  It's different but not THAT much of an advantage.

Not sure if its is something I'm doing wrong but some times when I have 2 low amp clamps hooked up to my 4423 I see noise in the signal unless I hook up an addition lead so I can ground the scope. It doesnt happen often but enough for it to come to mind.

I now have a whole list of questions.
Would this noise be present on the new scope since you cannot ground all channels with just one lead?

Are the attenuators made by a different company as the old ones were black rectangles and the new are blue cylinders?

Do the new scope leads have a permanent ground lead or still removable?  Seems like they would just make them permanent to prevent people hooking things up wrong.

Does this scope take away the need for a differential probe for testing under 200V?

Thanks

for those aussies who have purchased scopes from Tom, was there any custom duties and gst that you need to pay considering the value is over $1000?

i'm now really considering to purchase my first pico to replace my carman vg scope.

sidmann wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2014 at 1:29am:

for those aussies who have purchased scopes from Tom, was there any custom duties and gst that you need to pay considering the value is over $1000

Yes there is about 10% plus what UPS adds to the top of that.

Chad Austin wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 8:01pm:

I hook up an addition lead so I can ground the scope

That is something we have always recommended.


Chad Austin wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 8:01pm:

Would this noise be present on the new scope since you cannot ground all channels with just one lead?

The sort answer is no.


Chad Austin wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 8:01pm:

Are the attenuators made by a different company as the old ones were black rectangles and the new are blue cylinders?

We have not put our hands on one of these yet.  They are different.  These are 10:1 and, from what I understand, provide added input impedance raising it to 10MegOhm.  For those rare circumstances when the 1 MegOhm impedance might pull down a sensitive signal.


Chad Austin wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 8:01pm:

Do the new scope leads have a permanent ground lead or still removable?

Permanent.


Chad Austin wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 8:01pm:

Does this scope take away the need for a differential probe for testing under 200V?

Nope.  The channel ground differentials should be kept within 30V.

Thanks Tom,

Can't wait to see what new thing this scope is capable of. My 4423 does almost everything I need except every once in a while I need more channels.

sidmann wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2014 at 1:29am:

for those aussies who have purchased scopes from Tom, was there any custom duties and gst that you need to pay considering the value is over $1000?

Customs duty, import duty and GST on top of the lot.
When it arrives in Melbourne or Alexandria (depending on which freight company it's despatched with, I regularly use FedEx).

When it arrives they will send you notification of the amount.

Tom Roberts wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:13am:

The main operational difference is the independent floating inputs.  Grounds are not common so all channel grounds must be attached.  This does allow you to place a channel across a signal without disrupting another channel or causing a ground loop.  So, completely different hookup logistics.

Tom,
Wouldn't the Differential Oscilloscope Probe serve the same purpose? Or is the DOP just for High Voltage protection for the scope?

Jeff Gouveia wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 10:00am:

Wouldn't the Differential Oscilloscope Probe serve the same purpose?

Yes it would, for the channel it is attached to.  No 30v limit there.

Tom,

When you guys get in some of the new scopes could you see if one of the older scopes and the new ones will run at the same time.  In essence eight channels.

It would not be synced unless on a single trigger event but maybe another reason to pick up a new one for the folks thinking about it.

If I remember correctly the Pico software can be used with multiple scopes as long as they were different models.  I have successfully ran a 212, 3K and 4K at one time, but that was only with one scope in streaming with my relic PC stuff.

Sam

jarvissamuel wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 11:33am:

could you see if one of the older scopes and the new ones will run at the same time.

Yes, that works.  You can run a 4423 and a 4425 at the same time on the same PC using two instances of PicoScope.

Update:

The latest release and beta PicoScope versions now support the 4425.

Hey Tom im definitely keen on one of these new picos, I would be after the quad lite kit. any idea on the availability yet and costs all up with shipping to NZ? I think I sent a email through the usual contact section of the website already also. Definitely keen to get on the pico wagon, my handheld 2channel has one bung channel so only good for one channel and is proving to be a real holdback. Thanks in advance.

Olly wrote on Sep 28^th, 2014 at 12:15am:

I would be after the quad lite kit. any idea on the availability yet and costs all up with shipping to NZ?

Andrew will get back to you on that email tomorrow. 

Of course, we always encourage those overseas to look into sourcing locally.  We don't like stepping on other vendors overseas.  That being said, we won't turn you away should you choose to get one from us.

We still have no shipment date for our stock order.   [smiley=Grandpa_Angry.gif]

Might know more on that tomorrow too...

Cool thanks Tom, id rather purchase from you guys as this resource is invaluable, your kit has all the added extras i would have to order seperatley ohterwise, your after sale support is second to none from what i have seen and also pico group membership is the icing on the cake, particularly, as with all new models it will be good to have others out there to learn about the new features with.

I look forward to sorting the finer details out with you and Andrew and getting on the Pico wagon finally.  ;D

Awesome all sorted,  Christmas comes early this year. Thanks Tom and Andrew I look forward to the new arrival.

A good portion of our stock order is scheduled to arrive here Monday Oct 6. 

We will then be able to fulfill all of the pre orders we have so far....

Then you pioneers can show them off.    8-)

They are here and going fast.  Second production run ETA is unknown.

Christmas has come early down here in middle earth. Despite it taking only 5 days to get from the states (7,168 miles) into the country and then a further 7 days to get to my door (671 miles) I'm very happy. I should be used to the laid back way things work down here by now. But my new Pico turned up today ;D.

I had already sorted a new laptop specifically for it and with the comprehensive instructions from Autonerdz (thanks Tom & Andrew) All was installed and up and running without a hitch.

Some nice little extras included in the package too 8-)

I have managed to get a tough case to get the laptop and scope essentials in to keep it all safe when im travelling out to site. Not a bad setup but time will tell if i need to change anything.

Thanks again to Tom, Andrew and anyone else at Autonerdz for making this purchase easy and straight forward. I look forward to testing it out over the next few days and posting here for others to see.

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ohhh, awwww, shiny!

Cool         8-)

Choice bro  ;)

BTW - we have the very same place mats on our dining table...

What brand are those amp clamps?

PRESTON wrote on Oct 15^th, 2014 at 8:33pm:

What brand are those amp clamps?

They are Hantek, i got them with my old hand held scope. They seem to work OK with the old scope and will hopefully test them out a little with the pico. Would like to have the pico/ snapon ones for continuity against other reference wave forms if nothing else, but just couldn't justify replacing them if they were operating OK, and there are other probes i would like to get first. Its almost an addiction this scope game, it seems theres a never ending supply of goodies available that i could find a use for  ::)

One thing to keep in mind Olly there are a lot of cool gadgets on the projects board that people have made up over the years.  Check that out too.  That way you can save your money for awhile until you can afford the goodies!  Still saving up for my wps 500 and micro current clamp, :)

busjockey wrote on Oct 16^th, 2014 at 5:04am:

Still saving up for my wps 500 and micro current clamp,

Speaking of micro current clamp....Tom I noticed they are no longer for sale on the site.  I have no idea how long they have been gone, but was wondering why and if you plan to carry them again.

I also found a post back in 2004 where you used to sale the Mac Vandenbrink video, through the eyes of a scope.  It's not on there either and it's not on Mac's site either.  I sent him an email about it, but haven't heard back.  Do you have any insight about it either?

Sorry didn't mean to hijack anyones thread.

BMW Scott wrote on Oct 16^th, 2014 at 2:47pm:

I have no idea how long they have been gone, but was wondering why and if you plan to carry them again.

We found other vendors selling them so low that we could not hope to compete so we quit carrying them.  We have no plans to carry them anymore.  Great probes though.  We had a lot of funds tied up in stocking those so we put those funds to better use like buying all the 4425s   ;)


BMW Scott wrote on Oct 16^th, 2014 at 2:47pm:

Do you have any insight about it either?

Not really.  We quit carrying that stuff too....

on the seperate ground part...does that mean that if you are looking at ignition control module and pcm and you don't know which is positive and which pulls to ground then you can look at the same signal on two channels and have the ground lead one on positive and one on negative and then you can see if there is battery voltage on one that doesn't get pulled to ground or if there is no voltage then one channel will show a ground switching because of opposite polarity?...hope that wasn't too confusing.

aautomaan,

Not sure I understand the question but let me try to explain...

For the most part, the difference in hookup logistics will be simply stacking all channels together and clip them to battery negative as opposed to only needing to ground one channel.  Hooked up this way, the 4425 can be used just as you would a 4423.

However, it does open up some options we didn't have before.  You can have your channel grounds at different locations without crossing things up.  The limitation here is that you would not want more than a 30v difference between these channel grounds.  So, for example, it would not be advisable to place a channel across an ignition coil with the channel ground on the negative side as that is going to kick 400v.  We have done this though and the scope survived but we were trying to find out if we could destroy it by doing that.

I would reserve placing a channel ground on anything but bat neg unless you understand the circuit and what you are trying to accomplish.  The example of a throttle body motor above is a good use for this technique as the channel ground voltage differential does not exceed 30v and it allows us to see the throttle body motor switching polarity in a way we have not been able to with previous models.

Hope that answers your question.

Hey tom, sorry to bug you, but I was just wondering if I were to buy just the 4425 scope by itself would that get me into the pico group?  Or do you have to buy a complete kit?  I just figure that I plan on making this a lifelong learning curve and rather than paying the $ annually I might as well have another tool.  I really wish I would have researched more to begin with, I feel like such a dummy.

You could try to sell what you have on ebay or iatn, unfortunately if you want to move it you will probably have to take a little bit of a loss. :'( 

Ford racer wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 6:22pm:

I was just wondering if I were to buy just the 4425 scope by itself would that get me into the pico group?

Sorry, no.  Only the kits come with a Picogroup subscription.

However, the 4425 Lite kit is a better choice than the scope only and does come with the Picogroup subscription.  That way you get a better bang for your buck.  This comes with four of the new 8MOhm 10:1 attenuators and also a test lead set and a few other things.

http://www.autonerdz.com/picoquad4425lite.htm

This kit is currently on backorder though.  The other kits we have in stock.