Hi all my name is Olly and am new to this forum and scope diagnostics. I an originally from the UK but moved to NZ about 6  years ago, I work for a company that has both a high end mostly euro car workshop and multibrand motorcycle franchise.

I am a fully qualified Motorcycle tech but often work with the car workshop on technical issues.

Both workshops have a good renge of good scan tools mostly OEM for the motorcycle and auto logic for the Car side.

I recently bought a handheld 2 channel scope as had heard that it was a great diagnostic tool and have becoem quite dissatisfied with the level of info gleamed from the OEM tools.

I have struggled thus far to find any motorcycle specific waveforms to use as comparisons and have been trying to generate a bit of a database whenever i can from what i can get time on.

Any info or advise is welcome and if you think i may be able to provide info of use than please feel free to ask.

I see there is a Motorcycle section on the forum which i cant access, what is the best way to get access to here as the majority of what i may post will probably be most relevant there.

I look forward to sharing knowledge and experiences with you all.

Cheers

Olly

Hello Olly,  What brand of motorcycle do you specialize in?

The best way to get full access to all of the pico group resources is to purchase a scope from autonerdz'.Man you won't regret it.   Again Welcome.

Hi Harley mike,

I had worked for a long time with Japanese bikes when I worked in the UK, then I managed a Suzuki workshop with mostly agricultural customer base when I first came to NZ. Now I am head tech at our current shop where we are agents for MV Agusta, Triumph, Moto Guzzi and CF Moto brands of motorcycle with a euro specialist car workshop too specialising in BMW currently and soon to expand into VW & Audi. We were also the local agents for Lotus previously. So get to see a wide variety of vehicles and faults.

I would have loved a pico but having to fund the tool myself and liking the idea of a handheld unit I went for a cheaper Hantek unit to see how I go getting my head round using one. Plus I struggled to find many reviews from the motorcycle industry on using scopes so was sceptical on how valuable it may be for this side of the industry. But has already proved a valuable asset in identifying a few faults. Pico is on the long term radar for sure.

Could I buy just the pico unit and software through autonerdz without the rest of the hardware as I already have most of the accessories and probes I think I will need.

Maybe just the micro amp clamp for wideband A/F sensors that I think we are starting to see on the newer models of bikes.

Cheers

Olly

Welcome, Olly


Olly wrote on Jun 6^th, 2014 at 8:28pm:

Could I buy just the pico unit and software through autonerdz without the rest of the hardware as I already have most of the accessories and probes I think I will need.

Of course we do encourage you to look into sourcing locally as we don't like to step on the other Pico vendors overseas but here is a comparison chart of our kit options.  The PicoQuad Lite kit might be for you.  It has a nice lead set, the essential attenuators, and a few other things.  Just the bare bones at a good package price.

http://www.autonerdz.com/comparisontable.html

Hi thanks Tom I had already looked at that kit earlier and seems like a good way to go. I hear what you are saying about buying from the local supplier but I am interested in accessing the motorcycle section of this forum, is there another way to get access without buying a Pico through Autonerdz?

Olly wrote on Jun 6^th, 2014 at 10:15pm:

Hi thanks Tom I had already looked at that kit earlier and seems like a good way to go. I hear what you are saying about buying from the local supplier but I am interested in accessing the motorcycle section of this forum, is there another way to get access without buying a Pico through Autonerdz?

Oily,

I'm an Aussie scientist and BMW workshop owner.

If you are going to use an oscilloscope it must be a Pico....if you are to own a Pico...it must be from Autonerdz.!!!!

Why....first and foremost it is because of Tom...our forever unchallenged leader, I will not go into his many attributes in guiding you in his ever tolerant and helpful encouragement.

Secondly it is the Picogroup..........

Why??

The reason is that members of the Pico group will embrace and persue every academic point you have.

Yes at times there are people who may hijack and get personal, but they are collectively dealt with and finally warned by the ever tolerant Tom.

The Picogroup members are those that never say "I don't have time to find that out I just need the car out the door no matter what it takes", the people there want to know how it works and are willing to put what is required into the science to know this.

The quick fix in the Picogroup is to know your craft for next time........

If that is for you then the rest is only a matter of timing..

p.s. I hope the members are all reading this...I'm preparing a big one on CAN bus decoding for them as we spea ;D ;D ;Dk ;)

Olly, try this link. This is another option for acess to the picogroup area.
http://www.autonerdz.com/support.html#_Plus_you_get

Olly wrote on Jun 6^th, 2014 at 10:15pm:

I am interested in accessing the motorcycle section of this forum

The Picogroup section is only one part of the whole package:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1336513824

That being said, if there was a demand for it, I can make a motorcycle board in the public section.

Hi thanks all for the reiplies, i will put pico on my shopping list and be sure to get it through Autonerdz. Financially i might have to wait a bit.

The Subscription thing is a good option but at only 1/3 of the price of buying a pico and considering i have no intent to leave the trade makes little financial sense, especially when i intend to get a pico within the next 12 months.

Tom if you think a public Motorcycle area is viable that would be good for me to have a place to post to until such a point i can get into the picogroup. Otherwise what section would you recommend for posting up referance waveforms and asking specific motorcycle questions? I already have a couple of waveforms from MV Agusta's with faults that might be of use to some.

Olly,

I'll put up a public motorcycle board next week.  We look forward to your contributions. 

If I forget, just rattle my cage.   [smiley=smiley-face-poke.gif]

Welcome Olly.  I think I kind of know your debacle.  I am a Transit Bus Technician and pretty much the same thing goes on in my field too.  Not a lot of techs are using scopes in the bus/heavy duty side.  However I hope that will change because I have learned so much on these forums.  There are plenty of applications you can use a pico scope on diagnosing a problem on a Transit Bus.  Here are some examples.
1.  Engine Mechanical
2.  Air conditioning components such as epr valves, clutch coils, marine pumps.
3.  Automatic transmission shift solenoids.
4.  Electronic Diesel Fuel Injectors.
5.  Abs speed sensors
  This scope is great, since I got the scope last September I have used it to find two faulty Alternators,  a bad injection control valve and transient suppressor on a Cummins Engine, and used it to identify a bad lift pump too.  Just because scopes are not commonly used in a certain industry doesn't mean you can't.  So if you purchase one from Tom, use the forums to it's fullest extent and then start taking known good captures on all the bikes you can to start to develop a known good library.  That's how I figured out the problem on the bad injection control valve and suppressor.  I know it's extra work, but in the long run it's going to save you time and a lot of effort.  Think about it this way, if you could determine engine mechanical without having to tear anything apart which would save you gobs of time, why wouldn't you?  Anyway, if you have any questions, I would be more than happy to help out. 

Tom Roberts wrote on Jun 7^th, 2014 at 9:07pm:

Olly, I'll put up a public motorcycle board next week.  We look forward to your contributions.  If I forget, just rattle my cage.   [smiley=smiley-face-poke.gif]

Thanks Tom, Ill pull a few bikes out of the show room this week and try and capture some waveforms to post to get it up and going.

busjockey wrote on Jun 7^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:

I think I kind of know your debacle.  I am a Transit Bus Technician and pretty much the same thing goes on in my field too.  Not a lot of techs are using scopes in the bus/heavy duty side.  However I hope that will change because I have learned so much on these forums.  There are plenty of applications you can use a pico scope on diagnosing a problem

Yea thanks bus jockey, even the franchise importers technical team don't have a scope or know anyone in the dealer network that uses one. I sent them captures of what i have used it for so far and suggested sharing it among the dealer network as reference material but was met with a lack of enthusiasm sadly.

So i will put my efforts into developing a database and posting as much of it here as i can so those who are interested can see the value i am starting to find in the capabilities of scope diagnosis and have at least a head start on knowing what to expect in this sector of the industry.

Im excited to find others who are willing to share and help in the expansion of knowledge within our industries. ;D

What kind of scope do you use now?

busjockey wrote on Jun 8^th, 2014 at 7:19am:

What kind of scope do you use now?

Dont laugh too hard please as I have only just got into the whole scope thing. I bought one of the cheap Hantek DSO1060  :-[ Handheld 2channel units to start me off and see how valuable i find it and how often i use it.

The scoping idea has mostly been inspired by a lack of factory and industry support here and a desire to find the cause of a fault not just throw parts at the problem on a hunch or "experience" based descision as is prevelant here.

I am also trying to find a quality scan tool for the bikes we see as the factory ones are deeply average for info and display options, but as there is no OBD standard whatsoever yet there are few options. I am tempted by the Centurion Socio 300 currently but will have to fund that myself also so want to make sure. Thought the TEXA was a good option until i used one and found its limitations very quickly. :-/

I would just go with the pico alone if they hadn't started fitting wideband O2 sensors to all the current stuff, which looks like it makes a scantool is a nessesity now. ::)

Olly wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 12:20am:

I would just go with the pico alone if they hadn't started fitting wideband O2 sensors to all the current stuff, which looks like it makes a scantool is a nessesity now.

Something to consider.  http://www.autonerdz.com/ampprobes.html

Welcome aboard the crazy train, Olly.   :)

crackerclicker wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 12:45pm:

Something to consider.  http://www.autonerdz.com/ampprobes.html

Yea i found this but was not sure which clamp would be the right one for doing Wideband sensors. I already have one like the 20/60a one on there. I thought there was a specific one just for micro amps?

I had considered making a fly lead with a length of wire on  the signal wires loooped 10x over to amplify signal to use the clamp i already have but time is always against me.

The K110 Microprobe is the only one we know of capable of doing micro amps.

We no longer carry this probe due to market pressures and it was no longer a profitable item.

http://www.aemc.com/products/pdf/2111.73.pdf

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1274201795/0

Tom, do you know of anyone using this low current probe to look at a Nox sensor signal?  I have been contemplating on buying one to use it for this and other low currents.  Think this would also work great to verify current to multiplex modules.  Years ago I had a Allen Bradley input card go bad by intermittently shorting to ground.  It made my meter show the supply voltage drop from 13.6 volts to under the 8.0 volt threshold for the module to recognize the signal.  I figured it out by isolating and testing the wire first, but it would have been cool to see the current spike upward on it. :)

busjockey wrote on Jun 10^th, 2014 at 9:34am:

do you know of anyone using this low current probe to look at a Nox sensor signal?

No.  The probe is very accurate, but does not have a very fast response time.  Great for things that don't need that fast a response though.  Wideband and AF sensors, MAF current, magneto resistive WSS, etc...

Hi Olly,
  Welcome to the sqiggely line club, nice to see someone local.
I can not speak highly enough of the people here, always ready to help.
Autonerdz is the only place to consider buying a pico.


Olly wrote on Jun 10^th, 2014 at 2:29am:

I had considered making a fly lead with a length of wire on  the signal wires loooped 10x over to amplify signal to use the clamp i already have but time is always against me.

 
You could then create your own known good database under differing conditions from a near new machine.
Make sure you save any harness & plugs off old sensors.

I think the low current probe will work on Nox sensors, check out this video by ADPT Training, very cool.
http://youtu.be/VsR_P-14K0U

Think I might be investing in that micro amp probe. :)

Olly wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 12:20am:

would just go with the pico alone if they hadn't started fitting wideband O2 sensors to all the current stuff, which looks like it makes a scan tool is a necessity now. Roll Eyes

Right seems due to my ignorance/ incompetence that not all sensors are wide band as i originally thought. Being such a noob i think i couldn't get a signal out of the ones i was testing before as my scope has a slow buffer rate when set to 1.0sec time scale and takes a while to display the waveform (very laggy). Being impatient i didnt give it chance to display hence no recognizable waveform. Soooo

I will go back and check the ones i had thought were Wideband and see if i can get readings, If so it means that the new pico may get bumped to the top of the wish list over the scan tool!  ;D

I had the same thoughts too Olly, but after thinking about it myself, the Pico from Tom was the way to go.  We pretty much have all the factory scan tools where I work so I decided the pico first. :)  I want to get a Scan tool next but since I discovered the nox sensor video from adpt training, I have started to druel over that micro probe and what I could do with it.  I'm hoping to use it to see nox output from the engine and compare it to what is coming out of the scr side nox sensor so I can gauge the health of the dpf system.  One more month till I have funds, so If I get one I will show everyone how it looks.

Yea After a coupe of tests today on bikes that i thought had Wideband sensors turned out to be regular O2 the descision is to go with a pico kit from Tom next. Just gotta get saving a bit but hopefully within the next 6 months. :)

Nikk wrote on Jun 10^th, 2014 at 4:13pm:

Welcome to the sqiggely line club, nice to see someone local.

Hi Nikk yea good to find local people with a similar mindset. Where abouts in CHCH are you based?

Welcome to nerdz
I'm in Wellington running a mobile auto electrical services just for the trade.

Was down your way in Easter for a south Island holiday.

Sorry not a motorcycle tech but you might find car stuff very similar these days and the scoping technique will always be the same

Hi Autosparky,

Ye aim hoping to learn lots from browsing the threads and seeing what goes on in the car world as many of the systems share similar traits or at least test methods and waveform analysis techniques.

I pop up your way every now and again to visit my family in the capital, quite nice up there, nearly moved up after the quakes but descided to stay put due to Mrs's family being dowm here.