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Message started by Tom Roberts on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 1:15pm

Title: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 1:15pm

We field a LOT of questions over the email and phone.  Every once in a while, we find one that just begs to be shared.  So here is the question of the month:


Quote:
I was trying to compare Snap-On Verus to a Pico, quite confusing.  If you get a chance, could you give me an example of a 1ms sweep for these units.   Thanks!


Confusing is right!  You are not the only one having trouble sorting that out.  First of all, the Verus scope is a Modis scope.  Specs are the same.

Modis/Verus is confusing because a Modis screen (sweep) is only a small part of the total capture time.  You cannot see the total capture time when the scope is running.  A Pico screen IS the total capture time which would be equivalent to the total of all Modis screens....(262 to 1747).

There has been much disinformation based on the misunderstanding of fundamental scope operational concepts.   One of these confusions has been termed the 'Pico Gap'  It's based on the claim that the Modis has no gaps between the screens and Pico does.  That is at best, misleading.  Modis has no gaps between its screens and it's capture time is seamless.  Pico also has no gaps during its capture time.  The difference is only in how that capture time is displayed.  Modis breaks that capture time up into tiny fragments, Pico does not.  Both record their capture times seamlessly.

So....what are the multiple Pico screens that do have gaps between them?  They are each a full buffer seamless capture record.  The big difference here is that Modis can only capture one full buffer record.  Pico can collect up to 1000.  Therefore the whole 'Pico Gap' argument is nonsense.  The additional screens that Pico can capture is something the Modis cannot do at all.

OK, so here is how you would compare apples to apples using the sample rate charts for a 1ms Modis sweep to a Pico:

First you cannot compare exactly the same capture times but you can get close.

Modis 1ms sweep is a 262ms total capture time sampling at 500Khz.  It does not matter if you are using one or four channels because they are always active and using resources even if you have turned them off.

Pico's closest capture time is 200ms.  At this capture time, Pico 4423 will sample at 20MHz running four channels and 80Mhz running one.  This is because the scope resources are devoted only to channels in use and not wasted.

So the sample rate comparison between the two shows that when running all four channels, the Pico is 40 times faster.  :-o

Now, when you get into the longer time bases, the Pico becomes hundreds of times faster than the Modis/Verus.

For example, comparing a Modis 100ms sweep which is a 26.2.second capture time to the closest Pico matching capture time of 20 seconds, the Pico will sample 200 times faster running four channels.

So....The real 'Pico Gap' is the difference in performance between the Pico and the Modis/Verus.  Pico would be the AA fueled dragster and the Modis would be the VW bug.  The 'Pico Gap' would the the space between them on a quarter mile run.   [smiley=evilflame.gif]

Any questions?

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by crackerclicker on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 6:25pm
i posted these on iatn awhile back while asking for help.  what i did not know is that the modis would alias the capture at higher timebases.  the glitches you see are not actually there.  when scoped at a 10ms timebase all was well.  
i got myself into trouble on that forum by mentioning my desire for a pico because i wanted to see more on the screen while the scope was actually capturing the waveform.  no one seemed to understand that i did not want to have to stop the scope to "zoom out" like the modis requires you to do.  i will be buying a pico as soon as i possibly can.

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Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by fisher on Feb 4th, 2010 at 7:40am
I have a question that is fit for this discussion. I have several older labscopes that all have probably 256 samples per screen; never any more than that. I know I cant see trends with that like with the Wrangler from hell.
 While I am looking at , say, an injector while running, although I cant see it happen, the screen is refreshed every... so often.
  I mean if I set my trigger to normal and set it for a falling signal at seven volts for example, I will see a classic pattern on the screen (at idle in good running condition). How do I know how often that pattern has changed? If it samples at 10 million samples per second, that doesn't mean I have seen all 10 million samples, no?

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Feb 4th, 2010 at 9:15am

Crackerclicker,

What you show there is a sample rate issue.  It's also an operator error issue.  You are not alone coming to grips with the way the Modis operates.  It's not exactly intuitive and backward from most other scopes.

As you can see from the attached chart, your selected 200ms sweep is really a 52.4 second capture time.  At that time base, the scope is only sampling at 2500Hz.  That means that there are 400 microseconds between each sample point which is not fast enough to capture some of your CKP pulses at that RPM.

A Pico 4423 would be able to sample every 3 microseconds at a 50 second capture time.  That's 133x faster.

OK, so that is the scope limitation.  The operator error part is that you simply used too much capture time and pushed the beyond its limits.  Very easy to do...

This is the single most common error I see with Modis users.  You think you are looking at the capture time when the scope is running but you are not.  Fact is, it is impossible to see what you are capturing when the scope is running.  In order to see the capture time, you must stop the scope and zoom all the way out.  The modis runs fully zoomed in and you can only see a small part of what is being captured.  Once you get used to this operation, you can use it much more effectively and stay within bounds.  All scopes have limits, some more than others.   ;)

I must say here that we are only comparing the scope part of the Modis and its much more than a scope.  The Modis scope is the most powerful native hand held four channel automotive scope available.  Just takes some getting used to.

Back to the Verus for a moment....Very nice looking unit

The Verus is well marketed. It is also very expensive. The
PC platform it uses is a very limited one with minimal
resources. For example, it's not even capable of running a
PicoScope where a $400 PC from Office Depot is.

Consider the limitations of an aftermarket scan tool. Also
consider the scope, which is a very good one, but not nearly as
powerful as a PicoScope which is up to 200x faster.

Then consider the costs of a top of the line PC with some
good additions, like a PicoQuad Kit and a couple of factory
level scanners. You would be in a way better place for less
$$.

Then consider what happens if something goes terribly wrong
with the Verus and the down time to get it repaired. Compare
this to a 20 minute trip to the local PC store to get
another PC and load up your apps. You could be back up and
running within hours instead of weeks. ;-)


Fisher,


Quote:
How do I know how often that pattern has changed?


Not easily.  The down time between captures would have to be calculated for those settings.  All I can tell you is that there may be injection events taking place during the down time between acquisitions you are not seeing.


Quote:
If it samples at 10 million samples per second, that doesn't mean I have seen all 10 million samples, no?


It is NOT sampling at 10MHz.  It would only be able to do that at the very fastest time bases.  True sample rate is a function of the record length (how many samples can it collect on one pass), max ADC speed, and capture time.

To illustrate, consider a one second capture time and your 256 point record length.  What is your sample rate?  It cannot be more than 256 samples per second.  Doesn't matter that the ADC can sample at 10MHz.  You only have 256 samples to work with.  To sample at 10MHz you would have to reduce your capture time to 25 microseconds.

We have a sample rate calculator that helps compare the performance of different scope if you have the max ADC speed and record length specs:

http://www.autonerdz.com/java/SampleRateCalculator.html


modischart.gif (85 KB | )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by crackerclicker on Feb 4th, 2010 at 2:48pm
yes, i forgot to mention that everyone on iatn was kind enough to tell me it was operator error:)  

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Feb 4th, 2010 at 4:14pm

Crackerclicker,


Quote:
yes, i forgot to mention that everyone on iatn was kind enough to tell me it was operator error:)


Nothing wrong with making a mistake, as long as we learn from them   :)


Quote:
i got myself into trouble on that forum by mentioning my desire for a pico


That's all it takes.   [smiley=tongue.gif]


Quote:
i wanted to see more on the screen while the scope was actually capturing the waveform.  no one seemed to understand that i did not want to have to stop the scope to "zoom out" like the modis requires you to do.  i will be buying a pico as soon as i possibly can.


You will find that it's much harder to push a Pico beyond its limits.  Plus you will be able to see the entire capture time when the scope is running.  You will also be able to zoom in way more than the Modis can.  Up to 3 million x magnification.   :o  

You will also be able to trigger a full capture, which the Modis cannot.

And so much more...

We look forward to having you in the Autonerdz Picogroup.   ;)



Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by crackerclicker on Feb 18th, 2010 at 11:48pm
got this in an email today.  thought it might be interesting to some and figured this would be as good a place for it as any.  
http://diagnosticnews.com/featured/automotive-labscope-specifications/

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Feb 19th, 2010 at 8:58am
crackerckicker,

There is so much wrong with that article I don't even know where to begin.... :o

It's misleading at best.  

Suffice it to say that there is no mention of one of the primary specs that allow a scope to maintain a good sample rate.  Record length.

Probably because UEI ADL 7103 that he offers only has an 800 point record length.   :(

This is only slightly better than an old Fluke 97/98.

The 25MHz max speed means little without the record length.

You can plug those specs into our sample rate calculator to see what it really does at different time bases:

http://www.autonerdz.com/java/SampleRateCalculator.html


Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by crackerclicker on Feb 19th, 2010 at 9:35am
yeah, while i was reading it i kept trying to compare what was written vs. what i've read about pico.  it seems the article was trying to tell us what the bare minimum should be for auto applications.  i don't want the bare minimum!!  
btw, got the pico yesterday.  only question right now is if i need to install the beta version first or separately from the other version?

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Feb 19th, 2010 at 9:42am
You can start with either the current release or the beta.  Either one though will need the 4000 driver field fix applied after installation.

Call us if you need help with that.

Discussions on each of these builds in the Picogroup area with details on how to apply the patch.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Nov 29th, 2010 at 3:58pm
Since this thread has been referenced on another discussion board along with some disinformation, I thought I would bring it forward and add a few points that might address the issues brought up there.....for those interested in the facts regarding Snappy vs Pico.

One is that, the Snappy scopes don't pause when the buffer is full and continuously collect data.  This is true.....But you are losing data constantly as soon as the buffer is full.  The old data falls away into the infinite abyss…gone forever.  If you don’t manually stop the scope in time, then the data you wanted is just gone.  

With PicoScope, you can at least have a good chance that it will not fall into the gap between buffers when the buffer gets full and it starts another.  With Snappy…the gap is infinite.  If the event falls outside of the buffer time it’s gone into oblivion.  There is no other bucket to catch the data.  PicoScope has up to 1000 buckets (buffers) Snappy scopes only one bucket.

Think of the Snappy scope buffer as a bucket with a big hole in it.  When it gets full, the contents leak out as fast as they are refilled.

Think of PicoScope as a series of MUCH LARGER individual buckets that don't leak.  As you fill one, you spill some on the floor as you move to the next bucket and so on.

In either case, what spills on the floor is data that is not saved.

One of the problems with having a single continuously filling and leaking bucket, is the Snappy triggering issues.  Snappy cannot trigger the full capture.  Therefore you cannot capture an intermittent with the scope unattended.  It requires a babysitter.  PicoScope does not.

One of the contributors there showed a PicoScope capture where the glitch was lost between the buffers (buckets).  This was due to less than optimal PicoScope use and strategy.   The capture time of 200ms/div was not well chosen.  When set up this way, the buckets are smaller and so what is lost between them is a larger percentage of what is captured.  Using larger buckets reduces this percentage.

For example, if a 20s/div capture was used, then better than 97% of all data would be in the buckets and less than 3% on the floor (This varies a little with the PC capability to write to the hard drive).  Now it is very unlikely that whatever happens would be outside of the buckets.  Each bucket would have 3 minutes and 20 seconds of data.  

With a PicoScope 4423, the huge buckets are possible.  Not so much with the Snappy scopes because they cannot maintain enough sample rate to do it.

Sure, you could do this with the Snappy at that time base of 2.6 seconds (10ms sweep) but you better be quick on the draw and be able to stop the scope in two seconds, or the glitch would be out of the bucket anyway.

Different strokes for different folks, but everyone needs the facts.




Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PRESTONERR on Dec 13th, 2010 at 6:47am
Tom, I have been waiting for someone to clarify these arguments for me and the "buckets" analogy was great.  Also, as I was reading the article you are probably most likely referring to, specifically the one that showed an actual screen capture, I was thinking the same thing.  Why not increase the time on the screen, then zoom in if you find an issue, because the Pico has the ability not to miss near as much info when "zoomed" out during data capture right?  I feel like there is so much animosity between the two camps its ridiculous.  I've been researching scopes for almost a year now, and find that all of the top performers will do so much that any one would be great for auto use, it really just depends on personal preference.  I just don't get why so many guys out there love to bash on other scopes?  I feel like most of the people that feel very strongly one way or the other about there own scopes don't really know how to utilize them to there full extent, maybe I'm way off base, I don't know, I'm just chomping at the bit to use the shops tool budget money at the end of  the year!!!

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Dec 13th, 2010 at 9:35am
Hi Kyle,


Quote:
for me and the "buckets" analogy was great.


I was hoping that would help illustrate.  I should have called the Pico ones barrels though since they can be up to 200x larger   ;)


Quote:
Why not increase the time on the screen, then zoom in if you find an issue, because the Pico has the ability not to miss near as much info when "zoomed" out during data capture right?


I assume you mean by 'zoomed out' selecting a longer time base.  (actual zoom controls have no effect on the data captured).  If so, you are correct.  The longer the capture time, the less spills on the floor as a percentage of total time of all buckets.  How far you can go with this depends on the model PicoScope you are using and the type of signals you are acquiring.  You can go a LOT further with this if using a 4000 series scope as opposed to a 3000 series. Or..if the signals you are observing do not require higher sample rates.  

From 2 to 20 second capture times, a Pico 4423 can sample at 1mHz real time per channel with 1 or 4 channels active.  After that, the sample rate will gradually fall off.

The 4000 series scopes can also utilize something called rapid trigger at the faster time bases (1ms/div and faster) which reduces the time between buckets.  For example, you can view a single cylinder event and the engine would come apart before you reached an RPM where you would miss a single event.


Quote:
I just don't get why so many guys out there love to bash on other scopes?


I don't either.  Although I am obviously in the Pico camp, I am pleased when a tech starts using any good scope.  While we only make money when someone purchases a scope from us, we would rather see them get a scope they are comfortable with.  PicoScope isn't for everyone.  We do our best to make sure new PicoScope users are ready for it and it is the best choice for them.  This is one of the many reasons we have happy users world wide.  The last thing we want to do is sell someone a scope that isn't for them and have them be unhappy with it.

I try to keep subjective opinions and preferences out of the discussion and present only the facts.  You can argue opinions and preferences all day long, but facts are different.  The factual information is empowering and enables you to make an informed choice that fits you.  While some call this discussion a train wreck, I think there is an obvious reason why they have not come forward to disagree and add to the discussion in the light of day here.

All scopes have limitations, some more than others.  There are a lot of scope offerings out there that are not really very useful on todays cars.  The Snap-On offering are not in this category.  I have always said that in the native hand held scope category, you cannot do better than a Modis or V-pro.



Quote:
I'm just chomping at the bit to use the shops tool budget money at the end of  the year!!!


That's the desired effect   ;)  

We look forward to having you in 'The Cult'.   ;D

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Brian Haley on Jan 26th, 2011 at 10:03am
If you want your Pico to operate like the Snap-on offerings with a continuous single scrolling buffer, the solution is very simple. In streaming mode, set a repeat trigger on the right edge of the screen at a voltage level that will never be met by the signal being tested or trigger off a channel that is not being used- done. Now use the space bar to stop the scope when the event occurs.

The data will draw left to right with old data falling off the left side into oblivion. The “Pico Gap” no longer exists.

This is where the superior sample rate and record depth of Pico really shows. In this example, I have two seconds on the screen sampling at 1MS/s. The Snap-on offerings with 2.6 seconds on the screen sample at 50KS/s.

The video below is a little jerky due to it being an animated gif.

Brian

Single_buffer.gif (352 KB | )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PaulS on Jan 29th, 2011 at 10:20am
Hi Brian,

Great Tip!!

Matt Fanslow showed that to some of us a couple years ago. He also demonstrated that last year at the Vision conference.

Where you in that class?  

Is that where you saw it?

Paul

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Cale on Jan 29th, 2011 at 10:21am

Brian Haley wrote on Jan 26th, 2011 at 10:03am:
f you want your Pico to operate like the Snap-on offerings with a continuous single scrolling buffer, the solution is very simple. In streaming mode, set a repeat trigger on the right edge of the screen at a voltage level that will never be met by the signal being tested or trigger off a channel that is not being used- done. Now use the space bar to stop the scope when the event occurs.

Hi Brian,

I have been using that technique for some time now and find it very useful.  As far as I know, it's inception was at Vision a couple years ago in Matt Faslow's Pico scope class.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Daniel on Jan 29th, 2011 at 12:55pm
Thanks Brian.
Pico is new to me, so it's a great tip to get as a newbee like me.
Keep up the good work, and keep the tips flow... :)

Daniel

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Jan 29th, 2011 at 3:06pm

We don't usually post PicoScope tips and techniques on the public boards like this but, in this case, it seemed appropriate to post it here in this discussion.  Seems the 'Pico Gap' fantasy has a life of it's own even though it has no basis in reality.

We just thought that this would serve as another 'Myth Buster' for those that seek the truth.   ;)

It's good that Matt and others are sharing this tip as well.  Since Matt Started his PicoScope journey with Autonerdz, he has sure come a long way.   :)

There are plenty more great tips and techniques available to Autonerdz Picogroup members.  Since we introduced PicoScope to the automotive industry in North America, we have grown the largest and greatest PicoScope automotive user's group in the world.  

Thanks for dropping by.   :)



Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Carl Grotti on Jan 29th, 2011 at 4:32pm

Quote:
Seems the 'Pico Gap' fantasy has a life of it's own even though it has no basis in reality.


You got that right, Tom. It seems there are a few that like to bring this up now and again. Its ironic this was brought up again. I went to lunch with a very good technician friend of mine yesterday and he had brought this up. He also recognized the one who is doing it the most. Both of us have already spoke our minds on this and we'll just have to let it die or let it ride. I'm not sure what else we can do.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PaulS on Jan 29th, 2011 at 4:46pm

Carl Grotti wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 4:32pm:
Seems the 'Pico Gap' fantasy has a life of it's own even though it has no basis in reality.  



What do you mean "fantasy" ??

It is not a fantasy it is reality, So the PICO has some flaw's.

All scope's have flaw's.

Get over it  :)

I have

Although it would be nice if they addressed issues with the software instead of adding more bells and whistles.

Paul

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Jan 29th, 2011 at 5:11pm

Paul,

I refer you back to Brian's post in this thread.

If anyone really wanted their Pico to run a single continuous scrolling buffer, like the Snappy offerings, then just do it.  The only difference is that you can achieve much better samples per second over much longer capture times using a Pico.  Using this method the facts speak for themselves.  There is no 'Pico Gap'.

We could, of course, have a discussion about the advantages vs disadvantages of doing this.

However, I don't see how you can maintain that the 'Pico Gap' is reality when the facts clearly don't support that.

Maybe you can explain this to me.   :-?

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PaulS on Jan 29th, 2011 at 5:39pm

Tom Roberts wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 5:11pm:
Using this method the facts speak for themselves.There is no 'Pico Gap'.


I agree - when using this method there is no gap.

That is why I often use it.

It certainly is not perfect but I do use it.


Paul

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Carl Grotti on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:07pm
Paul,


Quote:
Get over it


There is nothing for me to get over. The chance of me missing something with my Modis is much greater than using the PicoScope. Do you think that I don't know how to use either one? The thought of having to run an SO scope zoomed in to prevent aliasing is increasing my chances to let some signal scroll by without seeing it. What is worse is having it scroll out of the buffer to never see it again. You guys can praise that scope all you want, but I'll continue to use the Modis as a scanner only. I don't have to worry about that with PicoScope. Plus, I get more than one full buffer if I want. That is where the gaps come from. Big deal. What percentage of acquistion do you think I'm missing in streaming mode? Very little. Some of you make this out to be more of an issue than it really is.

I've not had a single example to share where I've missed something critical in the "gap." Do you?  

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Brad H on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:20pm

PaulS wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 10:20am:
Hi Brian,

Great Tip!!

Matt Fanslow showed that to some of us a couple years ago. He also demonstrated that last year at the Vision conference.

Where you in that class?

Is that where you saw it?


Hey Paul,
I don't think Brian would spend much time in Matt Fanslow's classes  ;D


Brian_H.jpg (17 KB | )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by rod_au on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:38pm

PaulS wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 4:46pm:
Although it would be nice if they addressed issues with the software instead of adding more bells and whistles.


Hi Paul,
I hear what your saying. I said a similar comment myself not too long ago about some software. The basic functions should be right before adding other 'stuff'.
If the issue you are referring to is this 'gap', and removing it. It's not possible. There must be some delay as the buffer is written to the memory. I like picos bells and whistles.  :)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PaulS on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:51pm
I am putting this on top so everyone sees it first.

I am not bashing on PICO!!

ALL SCOPES have their issues.


Carl Grotti wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:07pm:
Do you think that I don't know how to use either one?


I do wonder how it is that you use the PICO all the time and have NEVER had ANYTHING you needed fall into the gap.


Carl Grotti wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:07pm:
I've not had a single example to share where I've missed something critical in the "gap." Do you?


Really hard to show something that falls into the gap.
May-be you could figure that out…. for me and PICO both  :)


Carl Grotti wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:07pm:
You guys can praise that scope all you want,


You have never heard me “praise” ANY scope.
Like I said they ALL have their flaws


Carl Grotti wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:07pm:
but I'll continue to use the Modis as a scanner only.


That seems like a bit of a waste,  to each his own.


Carl Grotti wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:07pm:
What percentage of acquistion do you think I'm missing in streaming mode?


Depends


Carl Grotti wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:07pm:
Some of you make this out to be more of an issue than it really is.


Some like to pretend it does not exist, I myself would like to pretend but it is an issue.

I would rather not continue discussing the gap issue.
It is not why I originally posted.

Paul

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Jan 29th, 2011 at 7:14pm
Paul,

I'm not bashing a Modis either.  It's still the most powerful native hand held automotive scope IMHO.


Quote:
I would rather not continue discussing the gap issue.


I wouldn't either, if I were taking your position.  

There are many different ways to run the Pico.  With a gap or without.  I like choices.   :)

Rod,


Quote:
If the issue you are referring to is this 'gap', and removing it. It's not possible.


It is possible, Rod.  That was the point of Brian's post.  Try it.   ;)

I am not saying this would be the best use. What I am saying is that method eliminates the gap completely.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by rod_au on Jan 29th, 2011 at 7:19pm

PaulS wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 6:51pm:
but it is an issue


How? I am sorry but I don't see it.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by rod_au on Jan 29th, 2011 at 7:22pm

Tom Roberts wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 7:14pm:
It is possible, Rod.That was the point of Brian's post.Try it.  


I meant in relation to normal operation, Tom.
I didn't know about this method and I tried it straight after reading Brian's post. I think it works great. But I think that I would prefer to have my frames to scroll back through. :)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Jan 29th, 2011 at 7:57pm

Rod,


Quote:
I meant in relation to normal operation, Tom.


I misunderstood.  Gotcha.


Quote:
I think that I would prefer to have my frames to scroll back through.


I agree.  However, the Snappy scopes don't have the luxury of multiple captures.  Brian's post did illustrate how one can run a Pico like a Modis on steroids without any gaps.   8-)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by jarvissamuel on Jan 29th, 2011 at 9:02pm
Here are some of my general thoughts on this.

If MattF suggested it at one his courses great.  I would not have seen it.  Not that I have anything against him I think he knows Pico scope stuff pretty well from the times I have talked to him.  It is just support is included in the scopes I have picked up from Tom so for me to pay a few hundred dollars for a Pico course does not make sense to me.  If he is able to be successful doing Pico courses that is great and I wish him continued success. One of these days I want to meet him in person at Vision.  Sadly this year is not looking good for me making it.

Concerning "Picogap" or time between screens it is both present and not present.  If the capture time is contained in one buffer/window there is no gap.  The issue arises when a shorter time base is used recording multiple buffers/ screens.  What also tends to make it worse is running no trigger and using a PC with low memory/ specs.  
It is also crippling using longer time bases with high requested samples. The amount of time between screens on a low memory PC can be staggering.

I am doing some testing to evaluate the change in performance of memory on the amount of time between screens.  I do not have enough data yet to post results.   The setup I am using is a wall outlet timer connected to a AC powered DC power supply operating a headlamp.  The minimum amount of on time is one minute so that is the time benchmark I am using.  The testing I am doing is set with no trigger and max requested samples on a 4423 operating all 4 channels.

To illustrate Tom/Carl's point at 10s/div the entire capture of on and off is recorded with no gaps.

On the other hand running a time base less than 10s/div has gaps between screens.

I have experienced faults falling between screens and it is frustrating but until I have a PC with very good specs I can not completely condemn the software for the fault.

I would also mention the "bells and whistles"/ software features it is important to remember how much Pico Scope 6 (previously Pico 5) software has evolved  and that is without taking into consideration of the Pico Diagnostic software suite that is included.  Advanced triggers, reference waveforms, math channels alarms and probably other things I am forgetting that each adds overall to the software.

I do miss the merge feature that went by the wayside and I keep dreaming that there could be a superimposed or raster ignition abilities.  Although I guess  using persistence kind of allows for superimposed, well kind of sort of.

OK, enough rambling for now :)

Sam

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by SG on Jan 31st, 2011 at 7:45pm
You guys can praise that scope all you want, but I'll continue to use the Modis as a scanner only.

Hiya, Carl!

Hey, I have a smokin deal for you then- trade for a current Solus Pro- no heavy Modis to lug around!  Just think how handy that would be! :o

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by SG on Jan 31st, 2011 at 8:11pm

jarvissamuel wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 9:02pm:
Here are some of my general thoughts on this.

It is just support is included in the scopes I have picked up from Tom so for me to pay a few hundred dollars for a Pico course does not make sense to me.
Sam


I think Matt provides comparable support and is good at it also.  The courses were a) to peak interest in PICO  b) to awaken some interest in scopes and their actual "ease" of use in diagnostics and c) some marketing (of course). ;)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Carl Grotti on Feb 1st, 2011 at 4:27am
SG,


Quote:
Hey, I have a smokin deal for you then- trade for a current Solus Pro- no heavy Modis to lug around!  Just think how handy that would be!


No thanks. I just sold a Solus Pro. I can graph more pids with the Modis. ;)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Bob Cultrona on Jul 21st, 2011 at 8:38am
Tom,

Very good post.......someone on iATN posted this link, very informative. :)  :)


Bob

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Jul 21st, 2011 at 10:10am

Thanks for reading, Bob.  Good to see that we are doing some good here countering some of the dis-information elsewhere with a little reality check.

If this is the thread I think it is, someone there said "Sunshine is the best disinfectant".  I agree.  This thread can be read by anyone anywhere.  You don't even have to be registered here as a member.  Anyone can also register and participate for free should they wish to do so.

Update:

Pico continues to beef up the capabilities with the latest software.  The power of the 4000 series scopes has been increased quite a bit at the longer time bases.  All this with just a free software upgrade.  This makes Pico now up to over 700 times more powerful than the Modis/Verus scopes.

For example, running one channel at the 87.3 minute Modis time base (20s sweep) you will sample at 25 Hz.  The nearest Pico capture time is 5000 seconds (83.3 minutes) sampling at 19.61 kHz. That's 784x faster.   :o

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Randy H. on Jul 21st, 2011 at 10:48am
I have s firend that has a verus and he said he cannot see the waveform. I suppose he cant figure how to zoom by pausing the capture and changing time/div and volts/div.
I didnt even bother to explain. ;D

And he said he wants to buy a Pico - he'd be calling Tom and Brian every day for two years trying to figure it out......... ;D

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Earl Davis on Jul 21st, 2011 at 11:29am

Randy H. wrote on Jul 21st, 2011 at 10:48am:
I have s firend that has a verus and he said he cannot see the waveform. I suppose he cant figure how to zoom by pausing the capture and changing time/div and volts/div.


Hi Randy,

You can not change the Verus settings with the scope paused you have to change the settings with the scope running. The zoom feature works much better on the Verus than the Modis.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Randy H. on Jul 21st, 2011 at 11:43am
Gotcha never used one - but I figured thats how it worked because thats usually how its done on other scopes. Thanks for the tip though. :)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by autosparky on Aug 20th, 2011 at 12:50am
Just had a play with the new Verus, I have to say it's got the makings of a good tool. When I fired it up windows XP was so slow, it was faster for me to turn on my Diagun, plug into a car and extract and clear codes before Verus had finished loading!!

For a tool with bright touch screen, built in scanner and scope, wireless, onboard information it's great!
And now it has unlimited help desk in New Zealand

Might have a play with the scope to see what it can and can't do,

Would I but it? $15K hmmm not for me but great for a start up kit.

Better off with toughbook laptop $5k Pico $4K information like alldata $2K? Diagun scanner $5k


Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Randy H. on Aug 20th, 2011 at 5:07pm
My friend Rod here in Kentucky has the verus - and it sits in the corner collecting dust. Its sad. Nobody there uses it and yet they paid so much money for it.

But in a flatrate shop, its hard to take time out to learn a new tool like that. That was the tech's excuse that work there........ :-X

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by crackerclicker on Aug 20th, 2011 at 7:00pm

Randy H. wrote on Aug 20th, 2011 at 5:07pm:
But in a flatrate shop, its hard to take time out to learn a new tool like that.


if you've ever lurked in the snap on product forums you would likely find that verus and flatrate don't mix.  many upset customers regarding the atlas program that started with the 10.4 update.  now it sounds like the solus pro will be replaced with a new model that will likely have the same atlas program the verus and verdict are plagued with.

on a different note, anyone see some inaccuracies in this product comparison from ats?
http://automotivetestsolutions.com/documents/ATSEScopeProLtdCompare.pdf

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by drdiesel1 on Aug 20th, 2011 at 7:56pm

crackerclicker wrote on Aug 20th, 2011 at 7:00pm:

Randy H. wrote on Aug 20th, 2011 at 5:07pm:
But in a flatrate shop, its hard to take time out to learn a new tool like that.

on a different note, anyone see some inaccuracies in this product comparison from ats?
http://automotivetestsolutions.com/documents/ATSEScopeProLtdCompare.pdf



Are you referring to the ridiculous cost to own one  [smiley=laughing2.gif]
Untitled-1_019.jpg (187 KB | )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by crackerclicker on Aug 20th, 2011 at 9:43pm
i suppose the prices are actually comparable considering what you get at face value.  this comparison is mostly fair considering they freely admit to a lower max sample rate.  i simple saw a few minor things that made me wonder how much was put into the comparison in regards to pico.  

going down the list i see problems with the "dual timebase", "pressure/vacuum conversion & tools", "add on products to limit obsolescene", and "additional tools working simultaneously on same screen" sections.  additionally, i'd like pico to fix the one about "number of panels to display multi meter"  ;).

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Aug 20th, 2011 at 9:58pm

The other thing in that chart is the buffer size.  For ATS they say adjustable limited by PC memory.  Should say the same for Pico then.  32 million is correct for the internal buffer but it can collect a hundred million to PC memory.

More on the ATS scope discussion here:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1271709853

But back to the Verus:

The Verus OS is XP Embedded...not full XP.  The Verus PC resources are also quite limited...not enough to even run a Pico when you step on the gas.   :o

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by crackerclicker on Aug 20th, 2011 at 10:22pm

Tom Roberts wrote on Aug 20th, 2011 at 9:58pm:
For ATS they say adjustable limited by PC memory


oops, yeah i missed that one.  shouldn't have since it is actually not a minor misstep on their part.


Tom Roberts wrote on Aug 20th, 2011 at 9:58pm:
The Verus PC resources are also quite limited...not enough to even run a Pico when you step on the gas


it's a good thing you mention that since i see people quote using the pico on the verus quite often.


Tom Roberts wrote on Aug 20th, 2011 at 9:58pm:
More on the ATS scope discussion here:


oops, again.  i gotta try to keep from mixing up the threads  :).

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PicoFin on May 15th, 2012 at 11:20am
Lazy as I am, I did not take the time to calculate all this plethora of information, so it could be but into the sample rate calculator:

http://www.sealey.co.uk/PLPageBuilder.asp?gotonode=ViewProduct&method=mViewProduct&productid=15453&productdescription=oscilloscope&productcode=&category=0&catgroup=&catmicrogroup=&analysiscode=&requiredresults=16

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on May 15th, 2012 at 3:29pm
PicoFin,

That is just a rebadged Hantek scope.

These are a very poor substitute for a PicoScope and not even in the same league.  You can start a new thread on these if you want.  This thread is about Pico vs Snap-On scopes.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by pct on May 16th, 2012 at 3:35pm
After purchasing and using a pico scope i had the chance to try the modis. i almost gave up on it before it booted up. but over all if you know the tool your using (both good points and bad) you can be successful. it's when you exceed or underestimate the tools capabilities that you run into trouble. ;)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on May 16th, 2012 at 4:00pm

pct wrote on May 16th, 2012 at 3:35pm:
when you exceed or underestimate the tools capabilities that you run into trouble.


Yes indeed.  I would say over estimate though.   ;)Knowing the instruments limitations is essential to be able to work within them.

I would say that most experienced scope users, when they get hold of a PicoScope, underestimate the tools capabilities.  There is some un-learning that needs to be done to realize that what was impossible is now possible.   8-)

New PicoScope software is coming which boosts the performance of the hardware again making PicoScope now 1000 times more powerful than the Snap-On scopes.  Single channel captures of 100 seconds can be done at a real time sample rate of 1MS/sec collecting a hundred million samples on a single screen.  :o

This is now appearing in the current 6.7.x beta release.  The same 4423/4223 scope hardware is up to 10 times more powerful.  Now that's a pretty cool free upgrade.   8-)

We are not recommending this software for field use but this is where things are going and these capabilities will soon be in a release version.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PicoFin on May 23rd, 2012 at 7:54am

Tom Roberts wrote on May 15th, 2012 at 3:29pm:
PicoFin,

That is just a rebadged Hantek scope.

These are a very poor substitute for a PicoScope and not even in the same league.  You can start a new thread on these if you want.  This thread is about Pico vs Snap-On scopes.



Tom, I just thought that all of the competition does not need its own thread. I did not know it as a rebadge, nor am I familiar with a Hantek, but a low price usually alerts me for a bogus product. I actually just thought if this was a new player in the field, that someone took the time to investigate its real specs and maybe put them into the sample rate calc to see where it reaches.. BTW, is the Hantek already in the chart on the website comparing scopes?

I am one of the lucky ones that just bought a Pico without much investigation, and found out later I did strike gold, as I just actually wanted to upgrade from a Fluke 123 handheld to a bigger screen  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on May 23rd, 2012 at 8:26am
I'm not going to say much here so as not to derail this thread as it is about Snap-On comparison not Hantek.  It's much better if each subject has its own thread.  Makes things easier to find and follow.  I won't respond to any more Hantek discussion here.  I will say this much...

The Hantek scope is indeed a bogus product that does not perform as claimed.  This is also a company that pirated much of the content from Pico's automotive library and put it in their software.  Other accessories and hardware have also been copied.  Support is non-existent.

From what I understand, Sealey is a reputable company.  I can't explain why they are selling a Chinese clone.  Perhaps they did not do proper research.   :-?

These Hantek idiots tried to recruit me.   ;D

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PicoFin on May 23rd, 2012 at 11:55am
Fair enough. Nothing more really needs to be said.  >:(

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by CW on Jun 5th, 2012 at 9:57pm
I am in need of both a scope and scanner, and for the past month have been examining the differences between Autonerdz Deluxe 4-Channel Kit and Snap On's Verus. I attached a spreadsheet highlighting the differences that were important to me. I'm not posting this to start any arguments, and I'm sure some will disagree or have something to say about one of my pros/cons. This is simply what was important to me, and I thought by posting it, it might be of some use to someone else in my position. The price for the Verus is the non-wireless, and the price for the Pico is Autonerdz Deluxe Kit $3,300, a $400 laptop, and Snap-On's Solus Ultra $3,900.

I also must add that one of the big pros for me is the quick response I have received from both Tom and Brian, answering my never-ending questions! Their knowledge and patience is extensive. Ever talk to a Snap-On Rep? I have yet to speak with one that knows anything about scopes. If the person selling you the product doesn't know anything about it, where do you turn for answers?

And with that said, I of course have a few questions. Tom: you were referring to Snap-On scopes, what do you mean by this?


Tom Roberts wrote on Jan 29th, 2011 at 7:14pm:
It's still the most powerful native hand held automotive scope IMHO.


Secondly, I was watching a video of ScannerDanner testing a CKP hall-effect sensor using a Vantage Pro. He shows that by graphing the min/max frequency you can see drop outs or glitches much easier than graphing the square wave form. Can anyone comment on the Picoscope/software having this function or something similar? If not, what would you do in this case? Below is a link to the video. You can skip to 6:35 to see him use this method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzZNlPosGSY&feature=plcp
Verus_VS_Pico.JPG (70 KB | 667 )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Drjekl on Jun 6th, 2012 at 2:43am
CW, you have answered your own question,
get it from some one who knows the product

bet that snap on man is still waiting for the vantage/verus to boot up, but while he waits for that he can tell you a thing or 2 about hand tools, thats his expertise.

i had/have a vantage pro,dont use it at all now, got the 4 channel deluxe pico from auto nerdz, the sections on this site that autonerdz members have acsess to has ALOT of Tech stuff which is well worth getting, this is probably best purchase of tool i have ever had  due to ease of use, support, expansion of knowledge etc. with my exchange rate, tax and freight it makes it alot dearer than you guys in N America get it for, but it is way worth it!!
Plus like you said Tom and Brian reply swiftly to your questions and mine, that shows dedication

PS, In my shop id be annoyed if i wanted to use the scope on the verus and another tech was using the scanner function, i think having 2 tools in one is more of a pain than it is good.
lets face it there isnt much out there now that you dont use a scanner for, so when will you get to use the scope if the scanners is always in use? :)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by jarvissamuel on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:24am
CW, where in Denver are you at?  I am in the Arvada area and run a Pico 4 channel and Solus Pro.  Maybe you could check out the Pico in person and see what you think.  Contact me through the PM at the top of the page if you like.

Sam

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PicoFin on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:30am

CW wrote on Jun 5th, 2012 at 9:57pm:
Secondly, I was watching a video of ScannerDanner testing a CKP hall-effect sensor using a Vantage Pro. He shows that by graphing the min/max frequency you can see drop outs or glitches much easier than graphing the square wave form. Can anyone comment on the Picoscope/software having this function or something similar? If not, what would you do in this case? Below is a link to the video. You can skip to 6:35 to see him use this method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzZNlPosGSY&feature=plcp



I consider myself quite a newbie on this Pico-thing, but my first thought was that you can take the capture you want, even save it as a PSD file, and if you afterwards notice you did not do this trick, open the .psd file in your Pico software, on the bottom of the screen "Add measurement", "whole trace" on the channel where you have your desired signal, let the measurement function show you Frequency and there you have it. It will show you min, max and average values in numerical format. For the application you desired, I don't know if it is for any diagnostic value to see a Hz trace (or is there, seeing a drop in Hz on higher rpm, that still is not the lowest Hz in the trace..???) You also have a dozen of other measurements you could play around with. More experienced users, please correct me if I'm wrong..


Btw, have you downloaded the Pico Automotive software on your computer? If not, please do, when you start the program it suggest you to a demo mode if it does not detect a Pico scope connected to the PC. There you can play around a little for free.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:11am
CW,


CW wrote on Jun 5th, 2012 at 9:57pm:
what do you mean by this?



I meant the Snap-On Verus/Modis are the most powerful native hand held four channel automotive scope available at this time.  By native hand held I mean an integrated platform all in one scope and screen.

They can even out perform some PC based scopes like the Escope.  To advance beyond the SO scopes you really have to go with a Pico.


CW wrote on Jun 5th, 2012 at 9:57pm:
Can anyone comment on the Picoscope/software having this function or something similar?


The 4000 series scopes can graph frequency live on one channel at a time.  You can also just not bother with this....capture four channels of data and then apply one or more frequency math channels to any of the active channels.  This will add an additional channel to the display that graphs the frequency and can sure help you locate the area of interest in a long capture time.


With a little more math you can also make an RPM channel.  With other math functions you can do all kinds of things you would never be able to do with a Snap-On scope.

Here is an example:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1308802930/

To address a couple of your cons in the Pico list:

Harder to resell:   

This has not been my observation.  The ones I have seen go up for sale don't last long.

Laptop isn't as rugged:

That depends on the laptop.  You can either get a ruggedized laptop or several standard ones for the same $$.  Keep in mind that the Verus is a very minimal PC that resists upgrading.  It does not even have the resources to run a Pico.  Small RAM, low end processor, not even a real OS, etc.  Any modern PC would be way more PC.

Windows based:

Yup, that can be a problem sometimes but Windows 7 is really quite good and light years away from XP Embedded in the Verus.

You are doing the right thing....your homework.  You have narrowed things down to two excellent choices.  It all depends on what kind of techs you have or what kind of techs you want to have.  The SO scopes are somewhat limiting if you have techs that really want to take this LSD thing to the Outer Limits.   [smiley=nerd.gif]

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by drdiesel1 on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:18am
Here's a little tidbit you over looked  [smiley=banghead.gif]

Snap-On's junk will need to have the yearly updates and it's not cheap.

Pico software updates are FREE and they actually improve the tool, were Snap On updates usually slow the tool down with BLOATWARE.

The Pico software updates are trial tested by us  :D


I can run my Pico on all my PC's and laptops.  Try that with a Snap On tool  [smiley=laughing2.gif]

I have a shop PC, my desktop PC and two mobile laptops.  I can use anyone of these to run my Pico.
If one has a problem, I can use the other one.  What will you do with the Snap On tool.  Two tools in one may sound like a good thing, but if that tool is down, you're ass out  [smiley=smiley-dance013.gif]

Don't be sold on a P.O.S.  by the snap on dealer.  That's his job  [smiley=mallet.gif]

I'm older and need to use reading glasses to see the screen.  The Snap On screen is a fixed size and it's not easy to see all the detail on a crappy low resolution screen. With the Pico, I capture on my 17 inch laptop monitor and can see the detail really well, but I also use a 24 inch monitor on my shop PC to see even better.  The Pico is exceptionally clear with excellent detail.
Untitled-1_048.jpg (109 KB | 609 )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by drdiesel1 on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:46am
I would like to see the Snap On tools image file against this type of output  [smiley=smiley-dance013.gif]
Untitled-1_049.jpg (115 KB | 615 )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by drdiesel1 on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:52am
Here's the same file zoomed in a little bit without using any channel filtering [smiley=evilgrin.gif]

Post a screen shot of the Snappy, so we can all have a good  [smiley=laughing1.gif]

Sorry, but Snap On's junk just isn't worth beans to me  [smiley=2cents.gif]
Especially when I have a better tool available, at a much better price. One with a wider range of use in the real world.
I use my tools in my business to set my shop apart from all the wannabe shops and, I do it with the Pico, the education and help from AutoNerdz and all the members from this site. 
The AutoNerdz, our members and the Pico are an unbeatable resource for me.

Ask your Snap On dealer how to setup, capture and understand what you're trying to find and fix  [smiley=hairpull.gif]

Trust me.  Autonerdz will know how and they're only a phone call or keyboard stroke away. We even have remote viewing for PC sharing help.  Ask Snap On to do that  [smiley=evilgrin.gif] [smiley=flush.gif]

Good luck with your purchase. You've been advised.
Untitled-2_010.jpg (77 KB | 608 )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by jarvissamuel on Jun 15th, 2012 at 12:14pm
CW stopped by the shop this morning and we had a brief Pico introduction.  I wanted to thank him for taking the time and effort to stop by and he brought doughnuts. I hope it was helpful.

Sam

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Jun 15th, 2012 at 1:03pm

Thank you, Sam.   [smiley=thanks.gif]

If he wants another session, we do remote sessions.  We can arrange for someone to join us in our PC and run Pico live in a car here with one of us to guide and answer questions.  We can do these for anyone anywhere with a good internet connection.  Just need to schedule it in advance.   ;)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by ScannerDanner on Jul 3rd, 2012 at 11:20am
Hey guys
I just found this thread by chance and since I apparently caused some of this ruckus, I thought I would add a thought. First I agree with what you guys are saying with the support system in place on this fine website. What little I know about it so far, it looks top notch. Second, please forgive me for so many Verus videos ::)  we are part of Snap-Ons S-Tech training program and I have ten of them for my class alone, so a lot of the time it is my tool of choice by default. I have to say that as a pico user for over 8 years, there is nothing like it. Especially my 4000 series. I recently did a Video on a Pontiac Vibe with injector problems and showed a method where you can see injector flow using a pressure transducer on the rail. Anyway I tried using the Verus first with their 100 psi pressure transducer. With the sample rate set at max and the time base set very low, I still could not make out the detail that the pico showed in the video. I wish I would have stored that picture. Anyway, this is only one example of where I needed my pico to do the job right. 

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Jul 3rd, 2012 at 12:27pm

ScannerDanner wrote on Jul 3rd, 2012 at 11:20am:
since I apparently caused some of this ruckus


Not that I am aware of, Paul.  It's a great ruckus though and I have thoroughly enjoyed it.  Kudos to you if you had any part in it.   :)

As I have said many times before, the Verus/Modis etc are excellent scopes and can outperform most anything out there but a Pico so are a fine choice really.

Glad you are enjoying the site.

Speaking of transducers....have you seen our Wrangler From Hell video?


Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by ScannerDanner on Jul 3rd, 2012 at 7:01pm

Quote:
Speaking of transducers....have you seen our Wrangler From Hell video?

No, where can I view it? Thanks

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by T. Pike on Jul 3rd, 2012 at 7:47pm

ScannerDanner wrote on Jul 3rd, 2012 at 7:01pm:

Quote:
Speaking of transducers....have you seen our Wrangler From Hell video?

No, where can I view it? Thanks

Hi Paul, I know the link was posted here, but I can't locate it. It is posted on youtube in four parts. Just do a search on "Wrangler from Hell" and you'll see it.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by ScannerDanner on Jul 3rd, 2012 at 8:01pm

T. Pike wrote on Jul 3rd, 2012 at 7:47pm:

ScannerDanner wrote on Jul 3rd, 2012 at 7:01pm:

Quote:
Speaking of transducers....have you seen our Wrangler From Hell video?

No, where can I view it? Thanks

Hi Paul, I know the link was posted here, but I can't locate it. It is posted on youtube in four parts. Just do a search on "Wrangler from Hell" and you'll see it.

ok thanks buddy  :)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Jul 3rd, 2012 at 8:38pm

Paul,

The YouTube one is in parts.

Here is the complete one:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1245369490/

It's also in our download along with a bunch more stuff I'm sure you will enjoy:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1324494080

Also tips on searhing the boards here:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1331151830

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by K2356 on Nov 5th, 2013 at 10:42pm
drdiesel1 its pretty clear you have no clue about how to use a Snap-on Scope. 

http://members.iatn.net/file/view/?id=38198&detailed=1

http://members.iatn.net/file/view/?id=40183&detailed=1

http://members.iatn.net/file/view/?id=44010&detailed=1

How much more detail do you need to find your problems?  I can zoom in, zoom out, use a filter or not  and get some real clear detailed waveforms. 

Also in terms of a cost... there is some pretty cheap modis's on ebay..... ohh and did I mention it comes with a Scanner and five gas s/w build into the system. Oh and it even has training program built right into the system for people that need training like you. Plus the fact it has the component test procedures with pinouts that show you which pin is which and where to test the component.

One other thing that the snap-on scopes/scanners have is the fact its boots up a heck of a lot quicker then a laptop and is more rugged for the shop environment and has less cables to trip over and its also a handheld scope vs. using a laptop and a separate box like the pico. I can tell you one thing without a questionable doubt.... I can scope a sensor with my modis a heck of a lot quicker then you can with your pico... I would have scoped the sensor before your laptop booted and pico program would have even opened. And That's a fact jack

Sorry Tom for adding to this post in a negative stance. However we both know that each Systems have different capabilities and that each one have Pro's and Con's in the way they work differently ,yet both can work effectively.  

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Anthony Lamb on Nov 6th, 2013 at 1:43am

K2356 wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 10:42pm:
How much more detail do you need to find your problems?


Kevin what about intermittents?

I like to have as much as I can in a single capture.
Have a look  at the 2 pictures below.
There is all the information you need to diagnose this vehicle.

The first one is of a intermittent stall with a 20 second screen with 1us between samples.

The second one is when it stalled out and when zoomed in.

All up was about 30 mins of diag time and found the problem including finding a paper manual for a wiring diagram.

Following a flow chart or a component test would have taken you all over the place and wasted a bunch of time.

As said before the price of a new Verdict, Modis ultra or a Verus pro costs more than a Pico, laptop and a few factory scanner tools.

Also it is sad that snap on is heading down the track of wireless scopes :(.


K2356 wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 10:42pm:
I would have scoped the sensor before your laptop booted and pico program would have even opened.


Simple solution is to turn the computer on before starting work at the start of the day and your ready to go.
20_second_screen.jpg (158 KB | 542 )
when_stalling.jpg (136 KB | 498 )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by K2356 on Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:25am
Anthony if you are thinking that a Snap-on scope/Modis cant find intermittents saddly you are mistaken.

I love my laptops and I also dont like killing them, Leaving one running all day does nothing but reduce the lifespan of them..Heat is a killer.
1997_saturn_crank_sensor_failure.GIF (22 KB | 500 )
1997_Saturn_1_9_DOHC_crank_drop_out.GIF (25 KB | 484 )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Nov 6th, 2013 at 9:18am
Kevin,

All I can say is that if you had a proper PicoScope experience you would be singing a different tune.  ;)

You are NOT going to zoom in on a Snap-On scope capture because it runs fully zoomed in.  You can only stop and zoom out to see a larger picture.  But you surely know this.  Pico can zoom in to electron microscope magnification levels of over three million X.  Why would you want to?  Because a Pico can make a continuous capture long enough, while maintaining detail, where you can actually use that much zoom.

Pico is up to a thousand times more powerful than any of the Snap-On scopes.  And that's not an opinion.

To each his own though and, if you are afraid of PCs and desire a native hand held tool, then you can't do any better than a Snap-On scope.

PCs are a fact of life now in a modern well equipped shop though and they do just fine running all day every day.  There are so many ways to deploy Pico equipment that the setup/boot time up is just a non-issue.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by K2356 on Nov 6th, 2013 at 10:15am
HI Tom
  Thanks for the reply, and we both know that using a snap-on scope we can set the time base to 50 microseconds. Why would we want to see something this fast... if we want to see "extreme" detail. Then with the Zoom we can manipute the waveform to what we want to see. Is this a setting that we would commonly use in the Automotive field..... I can say Ive never needed that powerful of a setting... so why would we need that much power in a snap-on scope or any other scope for that matter. 3 million X is redundent IMO. Anyways both scopes can catch glitches and both scopes can work effectively on diagnosing various problems. Again both systems have different capabilities and that each one have Pro's and Con's in the way they work differently.
You said "To each his own" I think thats well said.

On the issue of using laptops... I have various laptops that I use daily..... Do I like laptops for todays diagnosing vehicle complaints...  "No" they have so many draw backs compared to handheld tooling. but alas everymanufacture has went this way so we have been forced to adapt. Do laptops run hotter after running all day.. Yes.. does battery life get compromised.. Yes... does haveing extra wires kicken around get in the way... Yes.... Do the constant updates become a pain..Yes.
   I realize that the pico setup can be piggybacked onto a tablet  or laptop and I am sure some of the members here have some awesome setups that make it quicker.... But when you compare the basic setups ... I think you cant argue that getting setup and actually scoping a sensor is quicker with a Snap-on scope. Which improves productivity.

Either scope work great for the field we work in. In my opinion they are two of the best scopes in this  trade.Just they work differently.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Nov 6th, 2013 at 10:33am

K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 10:15am:
Why would we want to see something this fast...


Have you ever validated an inductive discharge ignition system primary drive?


K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 10:15am:
Do laptops run hotter after running all day.. Yes..


You should take your laptop to the shop.  Something is wrong with it if it is getting hotter. 


K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 10:15am:
does battery life get compromised.. Yes...


After time yes.  Just like anything else...like a Modis....


K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 10:15am:
does haveing extra wires kicken around get in the way... Yes....


What extra wires?  There is only one extra wire....the USB cable.


K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 10:15am:
Do the constant updates become a pain..Yes.


Updates are optional but usually a good idea....not always though.   ::)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by K2356 on Nov 6th, 2013 at 11:45am
You Wrote "Have you ever validated an inductive discharge ignition system primary drive?"


Never had to get that close.... with scan data these days and the fact the onboard computer monitors  pickup so much more.Scoping that fast is redundant  to me. In some regards scoping has become less used for certain tasks these days.


You wrote "You should take your laptop to the shop.  Something is wrong with it if it is getting hotter." 


There is nothing wrong with my laptops, however running them all day is also hard on the hard drives and battery. Running them all day reduces the life of them. 


You wrote "After time yes.  Just like anything else...like a Modis...."


Sure just like a Modis.... However if I have to clear a code after doing a repair I can tell you this... If I have the choice of grabbing a factory tooled laptop thats been shut off or grabbing a handheld scanner that boots alot quicker then a laptop... You bet I am going to grab the handheld tool to get the code cleared and job done so its out the door quicker... same applies to using a scope.



You Wrote "What extra wires?  There is only one extra wire....the USB cable."


Ya an extra wire(USB cable) and an extra piece of equipment (the pod), dont forget the a/c adapter cable that you need because the laptop will need charging at times.. bottom line is more cables = more of a pain.


You Wrote "Updates are optional but usually a good idea....not always though"


If you dont do the updates on laptops in terms of Automotive factory tooling ... you either wont be able to use the tool anylonger because it will time out or reprogram modules because that will also time out.

Laptops are a pain ... I wish the manufactures would bring back handheld diagnostic scan tools.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Nov 6th, 2013 at 12:35pm

K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 11:45am:
Never had to get that close.... with scan data these days and the fact the onboard computer monitors  pickup so much more.Scoping that fast is redundant  to me. In some regards scoping has become less used for certain tasks these days.


OK, so the answer is no.  You have not ever validated a primary drive or you would not be saying that..  There is only one way to perform that task and the scanner isn't going to do it for you.  Neither is a Modis at the longer sweep times.


K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 11:45am:
There is nothing wrong with my laptops, however running them all day is also hard on the hard drives and battery. Running them all day reduces the life of them. 


The laptop I am using at the moment runs 16 hours a day each and every day and has for four years now.  I have to purposefully reboot it from time to time cuz it's either on or on standby all the time.  Turning a PC on and off all the time is worse for it than leaving it running.  Not sure what kind of laptops you are getting but sounds like it may be time to get a good one.  I have had my share of crappy ones too.


K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 11:45am:
Sure just like a Modis....


And they can't charge the battery.  I had to get the external charger for mine.  Now no more battery issues....until I wear them out eventually.



K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 11:45am:
dont forget the a/c adapter cable that you need because the laptop will need charging at times..


OK valid point.  Sometimes two more cables.   ::)


K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 11:45am:
Laptops are a pain ... I wish the manufactures would bring back handheld diagnostic scan tools.


Not gonna happen.  We have to adapt or become obsolete.  Those things need to be updated too BTW.

I was mainly referring to PicoScope updates, which are free.  But not always a good idea, depending on the versions.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Anthony Lamb on Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:39am

K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 11:45am:
I wish the manufactures would bring back handheld diagnostic scan tools


I will take a mongoose cable over using a handheld  IT2 or IT1.

It is heaps faster using a PC based scanner than a handheld scanner and J2534 reprogramming is all on the same tool.


K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 11:45am:
Ya an extra wire(USB cable) and an extra piece of equipment (the pod), dont forget the a/c adapter cable that you need because the laptop will need charging at times.. bottom line is more cables = more of a pain.


It is no worse than using a OBD 2 connector break out box on every vehicle you use a scanner on. You get used to it over time.


K2356 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 11:45am:
In some regards scoping has become less used for certain tasks these days.


I have to disagree with you on that.
Newer vehicles there is still a rather large need to use a powerful scope. Yes scanners have come a long way but they are only so fast.Good luck trying to find a intermittent drop out in a drive by wire TPS with scan data.

I work with a lot of techs that don't believe in using scopes or only use them when needed.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by BMW Scott on Nov 7th, 2013 at 4:20am
The only reason anyone would say that a scope is not needed as much these days is because they either don't know how to use it or what you can actually test with it.  That also goes for a scope that is not capable of testing at the level a pico is.  People become use to using what they have and if you were not brought up around a scope you learn other ways to figure things out.  But there can and will always be things that requires a scope.......and sometimes a powerful scope.  I've used snap ons scopes and pico.  There really is no comparison. 

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by K2356 on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:36am
Scott
   your reading comprehension certainly needs some work..... Please re-read what I stated..."In some regards scoping has become less used for certain tasks these days". I am not going to get into details here because I have MANY examples of this and there are many "intelligent" technicians that would agree.
 
   The less I have to pull out any of my "various scopes" the faster Technician I can be, So if it means using the scanner to interpret data and perform bi-directional tests/power balances/cranking compression tests/misc function tests/actuator tests/fuel flow meter tests  etc etc.. vs. pulling out a scope and wasting time. Then with the scanner I become more proficient. I NEVER said there wasnt a time and place for a scope.... If you are a iATN member you can go and search the waveform library as you will see more scope captures from me on there then Autonerdz has in all of their reference waveform library.So before you start knocking someone maybe you should do your homework first.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Earl Davis on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:57am

K2356 wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:36am:
"In some regards scoping has become less used for certain tasks these days".


http://www.flatrater.com/

Here is a place you can learn to become more proficient with you scan tool!   ;)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by K2356 on Nov 7th, 2013 at 9:01am
A very good example Earl.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:10am

K2356 wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:36am:
If you are a iATN member you can go and search the waveform library as you will see more scope captures from me on there then Autonerdz has in all of their reference waveform library.


You have no clue what we have.  You can only see the tip of the iceberg.


K2356 wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:36am:
your reading comprehension certainly needs some work.....


Just a friendly reminder....you might want to read this:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1094423353

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by K2356 on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:34am
I asked one of your members as to how many waveforms are in the reference library.... As this might peak my interest to subscribe. I am sure we both can figure out why I am not a member yet.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Chad Austin on Nov 7th, 2013 at 12:11pm
Wow I just walked into the wrong side of this thread. [smiley=scared0016.gif]

I have not used a modis, verus or verdict. I have a Solus Ultra, a Vantage Pro and a Pico

Before I spent the $$$ to buy Pico I called my snap-on rep to train me or give me advice on getting the most from my Vantage Pro. I wanted a long capture time to find intermittent problems and I wanted to be able to zoom in after I saved a file. I was using shopstream connect to view and print files/waveforms after I saved them but I couldn't zoom in like I wanted. I received little help from my regional Snap-on tech guy and when I called the tech line they couldn't understand why I would like to record zoomed out just to zoom back in. I then bit the bullet and bought the Pico Quad kit from Tom and haven't looked back.

I use a $500 laptop that I bought for scanning VWs and haven't had any problems yet. The battery life while using the Pico is about 2 hours. The battery life on my vantage is about 2 hours as well but I have a spare battery on the charger all the time. I leave my laptop running 24/7 and it never gets hot excluding the time my Service writer pulled out a VW into the sun while I had my laptop in the car.

I still use the vantage for certain tasks like checking draws on a vehicle where I don't want the extra setup time. I prefer to have my scanner separate from my scope so I can work on more than one vehicle at time. I do like how the snap-on scopes will often give you the easiest place to test a component and also a reference waveform.

I understand my ignorance on snap-on scope operation but the tech help and solution wasn't there and I often lack the time needed for experimental learning. I guess I enjoy the ease of using the Pico and try to focus on the problem instead of scope setup

Some people like different tools and that's the bottom line. Use whatever tool "you" can use most effectively to Diagnose and Repair accurately and quickly.

I think we can all calm down just a little  ::)
Try not to crucify me for my choices and opinions.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:43pm
Kevin,

First I want to commend you for your massive contributions to iATN.  That's an example of your dedication.   [smiley=ok.gif]


K2356 wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:34am:
how many waveforms are in the reference library....


You may not know what our reference waveform library is.  We have a dedicated library to download composed of PicoScope psreference files.  This is just cam and crank relationship examples.  At last count maybe 300 examples from 24 manufacturers.  this is a drop in the bucket.

As for other examples posted on the forums here and our cloud, you are looking at another 20,000 or so since 2004.

iATN has been around a LOT longer and their total library numbers about 33,500.

This may put things in perspective for you. 


Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by BMW Scott on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:01pm

K2356 wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:36am:
Scott
   your reading comprehension certainly needs some work..... Please re-read what I stated..."In some regards scoping has become less used for certain tasks these days". I am not going to get into details here because I have MANY examples of this and there are many "intelligent" technicians that would agree.

   The less I have to pull out any of my "various scopes" the faster Technician I can be, So if it means using the scanner to interpret data and perform bi-directional tests/power balances/cranking compression tests/misc function tests/actuator tests/fuel flow meter tests  etc etc.. vs. pulling out a scope and wasting time. Then with the scanner I become more proficient. I NEVER said there wasnt a time and place for a scope.... If you are a iATN member you can go and search the waveform library as you will see more scope captures from me on there then Autonerdz has in all of their reference waveform library.
So before you start knocking someone maybe you should do your homework first
.


Wow you fly off the handle in an instant.  If I was referring to you specifically I would have quoted what you said like I did here.  I use to have a tech that worked for me that believed the same thing and I showed him why scopes are needed more today than ever.  But if I've learned anything in life it's that when someone has made up their mind about something to the level you have, there is no changing it!  My time is much better spent educating myself and helping others that want help and not bringing people down.

I wish you the best, but I'm not sure this is the place for you.  Although that is not my decision.  I just hope you can make your future post more productive for yourself and others.

I say good day sir.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PRESTON on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:58pm

Chad Austin wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 12:11pm:
Wow I just walked into the wrong side of this thread.


  Yeah, me too. 

  Kevin, you have in my opinion outwardly "talked down" to 2 different members within a half dozen responses in this thread.  What's the deal? 


K2356 wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:36am:
as you will see more scope captures from me on there then Autonerdz has in all of their reference waveform library.


  Not sure about that, furthermore, are you counting "zoomed out"  (;D) views of the same capture as more than 1?

  What a jackwagon.  8-)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by fisher on Nov 10th, 2013 at 1:12am
So are we satisfied that we are in disagreement then? 8-)
    Kids, you may now stop quarreling. Some of you need a time out; go stand in the corner! :D

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Derreck on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:29am
There are so many posts in this thread that just seem insane to me.

We're talking about tools here, right?  Not religion or politics or hot-button topics, TOOLS!

What is there to get so uppity about?

I don't understand why people would act like there are "right" and "wrong" answers here, or act like someone insulted their deity or belief structure. 

We're talking about TOOLS!

I have used SO scopes EXTENSIVELY.  You guys that know me on here are well aware of that, and my history with the Verus.  I still use my Vantage pro every day. 

The Verus is gone, and now I use a pico for heavy lifting.

I know both tools very well.

The Snap on tools are faster to deploy in most cases, and depending on the signal being captured can often get you to a faster diagnosis.  I feel that this point is true.
The Pico is much more powerful.  It samples much faster and gives an insane level of detail.  It can capture giant amounts of data at a time and allows you to manipulate the waves with much greater control after the fact.  I feel that this is true.

I don't care what scope someone is using, as long as they are using it and not letting it collect dust while throwing parts at problems.

It hurts my brain to see anyone getting upset over the subject or acting like a child.  Save that for a religious forum.  This is a tool discussion.  I mean, come on!  TOOLS!

PS:  My cheap little ACER laptop runs all day 5-6 days a week and has never overheated, acted up, or done anything else it shouldn't do.  It also runs the Pico just fine.  Smooth and fast.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by PRESTON on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:39am
  I kind or regret even adding to this thread after I did, but whatever.  As far as speed of getting your scope capture SO vs. Pico, I think there are too many variables to compare directly.  I feel like most responses in regards to setup time and getting a capture are assuming your laptop is off and the scope is buried away in a case.  I'm sure I'm not the only one that has streamlined there setup time.  My laptop too is always on at work, use it for scanning, information systems, and the scope.  I have a cart setup that allows me to simply take my laptop from my toolbox, to the cart, plug in the usb cable, and start the software.  From that point it's just hooking up leads.  I have a boom with the most commonly used cabling ready to go.  I think I'll time myself tomorrow just to see how long it takes to go from deciding I need to scope, to the first capture being made  :).   

  All I'm saying is, setup time is relative.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Nov 10th, 2013 at 10:09am

Derreck wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:29am:
I don't care what scope someone is using, as long as they are using it and not letting it collect dust while throwing parts at problems.


Very true.  The less capable scope that gets used is way more effective than the most powerful gathering dust.  This is why the tech needs to choose a scope they are comfortable using.  If you are not comfortable with PCs, then PicoScope is probably not a good choice for you.

Much of that choice is subjective and everyone has an opinion.  What everyone does not have is the facts.  This thread was meant to solve the lack of factual information and myth bust some of the disinformation that is out there.  Sometimes facts change opinions, sometimes not.  But they stand on their own.


PRESTON wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:58pm:
What a jackwagon.


We could have done without that,  :-X  but the rest is contributing to the discussion.   ;)


PRESTON wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:39am:
All I'm saying is, setup time is relative.


Yup.  And the work environment has a lot to do with it.  In some environments, leaving your PC out and ready for battle might not be a good idea.  Maybe you work outside.  Maybe your coworkers can't be trusted not to smash your PC.....etc....

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Derreck on Nov 10th, 2013 at 1:18pm
Maybe its just me on setup time preston.  Im sure Ill get faster with the pico in time, but right now I still think I coukd get waves on screen faster with a Verus...
Not that I would EVER give up my Pico for one, of course.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by magicmatt on Nov 10th, 2013 at 7:09pm
On the subject of time it takes to start scoping, if every tool is off. My hp probook starts up faster then my snapon verdict which has the basic same software as the verus. Snapon windows starts then wait for snapon diagnostic application to start, by then I already would have my pico scoping. I traded the verdict for a modis ultra for this very reason. Now the modis ultra boots in about 10 sec but I have a pico so it  gets the majority of all scope needs. :)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by drdiesel1 on Sep 13th, 2015 at 3:03am
I like my Verus Pro..... It's a great graphing meter  :o

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by M-TEKK1 on Mar 11th, 2016 at 11:06pm
I have been a verus scope user for about 6 years now.  Previous scope was the otc 4 channel(that was a graphing multimeter, but at least it had horixontal cursors)

My biggest complaints aboout the verus is
A:  In order to see what u want in detail u have to start zoomed in to where u barely know what your scoping then you can zoom out(anti zoom).  Veiwing primary, secondary CAN or any other fast items can be dificult when there is a glitch.  You have to be "quick on the pause" or you will be trying again.  This can be extremely time consuming as you dont know if you recorded the glitch or not.

B: There are no horizontal cursors.  This is very time consuming.  You would either need to eyeball the voltage or move the vertical cursor to every point you want to take a voltage reading at.


I do mobile diagnostics.  I shut down my verus between jobs.  starting up my verus take 1 munute 50 seconds to get to the atlas menu.  Scoping probably takes another minute or so. (getting leads hooking them up and stuff)  BUT  I have wasted so much time with re scaling time scales, voltage scales, then inverting and re recording. Not to mention missing what that glitch or sputter or stammer.  I dont have the pico yet(hoping it arrives in mail Wednesday) but I think it would lead to a quicker end result.  My lap top never turns off.  It goes to sleep when I close the screen Friday and it still has juice when I open it Monday.  Try doing that with a Verus.(also having the verus scope plugged into A/C can majorly alter scope readings.


The verus scope is based on or a version of the SUN scopes.  Snap on bought SUN equipment years ago.  Snap on does not have a scope R and D department.  They will not update the scope module. (they only put it in different cases)

I really like this forum.  Thanks for having me

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Mike in St. Louis on Mar 12th, 2016 at 4:48pm
Very informative M-TEKK1, thanks for sharing..Mike.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Spence on Mar 12th, 2016 at 4:56pm

M-TEKK1 wrote on Mar 11th, 2016 at 11:06pm:
I dont have the pico yet(hoping it arrives in mail Wednesday) but I think it would lead to a quicker end result. 


Did you buy it from the Autonerdz? I have a feeling you didn't

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by M-TEKK1 on Mar 14th, 2016 at 4:01pm
Bought the pico from aeswave.com  used.  comes with a couple of goodies that the autonerdz doesnt

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Mar 14th, 2016 at 5:05pm

M-TEKK1 wrote on Mar 14th, 2016 at 4:01pm:
comes with a couple of goodies that the autonerdz doesnt


Just curious what that might be....

Of course, the biggest goodie you are missing is this:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1336513824

We do have used ones that come with this from time to time....

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1437351120


Quote:
I really like this forum.  Thanks for having me


Thanks for joining.  You'll find plenty in the public areas to keep you busy for a while.  When you hunger for more and want the complete Pico experience, just let us know... ;)

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Mar 22nd, 2018 at 10:27am
I was asked to give an example here of the Pico 4425 performance to update this thread.

In the first image, we have a 500kbaud CAN hi and low.  This is a ten second capture sampling at 12.5 million samples per second.  This is an 80 billionths of a second sample interval.  There are 125 million samples per channel.

You need to sample at 8 to 10x the baud rate to get good CAN reconstruction so this setup would also serve to sample high speed CAN.

The nearest time base to this using a Verus would be a 50ms sweep which is a 13.1 second capture time sampling at 10kHz.  So in this example, the Pico is 1250x faster.

The second image is a 20,000x zoom.
10secan2.jpg (474 KB | 179 )
10secan20kx2.jpg (502 KB | 211 )

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Ford racer on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:10am
I know this is also an old thread but I thought I would comment.  I totally agree that a bad scope being used is better than the best one collecting dust.  The reason I say that is because I am guilty myself.  I have a verus edge and I also have a pico 4425 that I purchased from tom last year, and I previously had a 4423 and a modis both.  I am guilty of always grabbing the verus because its already turned on because we are scanning constantly with it and I am used to operating that scope.  I have all the bells and whistles for both but I rarely use the pico for the reasons previously stated and I am actually ashamed of myself for that.  I really need to spend more time using and learning the pico, everyone on here is very good and I always enjoy reading the forums and now that I am a member I really need to take advantage of that.  I will say that I do enjoy using the pico more when I do use it, I just have a lot to learn with it and need to get my butt in gear and set aside the time to learn it.

Title: Re: Question of the Month: Verus Vs Pico
Post by Tom Roberts on Nov 29th, 2018 at 8:51am

Ford racer,

I hear you there.  As previously discussed in this thread, it's really helpful to set up a cart or something for your Pico with everything there at the ready.  Lot's of ideas here:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1083810927

Like anything else, proficiency comes with seat time.  We are here to assist any way we can.

The capture I posted in reply 100 is a good one to try to duplicate.  If you can achieve the performance shown in that capture, you will have learned more about the Pico 4425 than most users will ever know....   ;)

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