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Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis (Read 12,884 times)
bangshout
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Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
May 30th, 2011 at 8:28am
 
Does anyone have  any information on secondary ignition waveforms.Maybe with  a nice introduction  leading  up to a more in depth  look.
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Robski
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #1 - May 30th, 2011 at 10:46am
 
"A little passion of mine vehicle diagnostics.Im not a proffesional but I think I know a heck of a lot more than most  mechanics."

Do you need it ?   Undecided
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Rob.
 
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Randy H.
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #2 - May 30th, 2011 at 5:37pm
 
Check out Motor magazine - they have some good online articles. Best way to learn is do some R and D with a scope. You can read and watch videos all you want but experience makes you remember.
Robski wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 10:46am:
I think I know a heck of a lot more than most  mechanics."

Sounds like me - even before I went into the automotive field I was repairing my friends cars that the dealerships  and local shops couldnt fix. Good mechanics/techs are rare - many just replace parts and guess. Also a lot of shops are flatrate, so it doesnt pay to take your time and make sure its right. But there are a few good flatrate techs out there...like Jim Wilson. THE FLATERATER....check out his website
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drdiesel1
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #3 - May 30th, 2011 at 7:27pm
 
Randy H. wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 5:37pm:
Good mechanics/techs are rare - many just replace parts and guess. Also a lot of shops are flatrate, so it doesnt pay to take your time and make sure its right. 

The Cancer of the industry  Smiley
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Manic Mechanic
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #4 - May 30th, 2011 at 11:25pm
 
drdiesel1 wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 7:27pm:
Randy H. wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 5:37pm:
Good mechanics/techs are rare - many just replace parts and guess. Also a lot of shops are flatrate, so it doesnt pay to take your time and make sure its right.  

The Cancer of the industry  Smiley


I work flat rate, It always pays to do it right the first time , Testing not guessing pays me well , I invest in the tools to make me faster and better.... Cool
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #5 - May 31st, 2011 at 1:35pm
 
Manic Mech - do you ever get a car it takes more than an hour to diagnose? If so, what do you do? eat the extra hours to fix it? Or send it to another shop, and charge the customer nothing?
(thats what I was saying)
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #6 - Jun 1st, 2011 at 7:28am
 
Hey guys

That was a quote from bangshout not me  when he introduced himself to the site  Wink

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1301317334
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Cheers

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drdiesel1
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #7 - Jun 1st, 2011 at 12:27pm
 
Manic Mechanic wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 11:25pm:
drdiesel1 wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 7:27pm:
Randy H. wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 5:37pm:
Good mechanics/techs are rare - many just replace parts and guess. Also a lot of shops are flatrate, so it doesnt pay to take your time and make sure its right.  

The Cancer of the industry  Smiley


I work flat rate, It always pays to do it right the first time , Testing not guessing pays me well , I invest in the tools to make me faster and better.... Cool



That's great.  I didn't say anything about you.  I was simply stating what most shops have working as a, so called tech.
After the corporation bought our dealership, they opened a new tech position to get around having a higher paid journeyman tech do the job. Now they have a bunch of low paid guesswork techs. All but a few of the journeyman guys are gone. The guys that did stay aren't that skilled and will not make a decent living off of flatrate.
The corporation has all but killed the customer base we had. Our waiting list was always about 1 to 2 days deep. Now no one has steady work and most of the customers are fed up with shitty workmanship and the need to return the car to the dealer because of problems from the repairs an service.  Everyone wants to cut corners and cherry pick work  Smiley

Flatrate breeds animosity in the shop and when someone takes a job to try and scrape the gravy and leave the shitwork for others, it's an ugly situation.  
I had guys take a check engine light to try and make money off the job. The guy had no business getting the job to start with and when he found himself over his head, he wanted to hand it off to me. The manager asked me to help him. It's a flatrate shop.  How was I suppose to make my money  Shocked Now the cars been in the shop for 2 weeks and he's grabbing other work and dancing around this car.
They let this guy get away with this all the time.  After seeing how the shop was run (I was new) it all started to show how poorly things were being done. If this guy couldn't make easy money, he passed the job off. If it had gravy, he would scrape it off the top and not do the rest of the work.  The customer is the one that suffered and the wire harness was hacked because when I told him to isolate the fault to the specific circuit.  He started cutting wires under the dash and on the engine harness.  Then the manager asked me to  fix the car and I refused.  I left the end of that week.  The only work I could get was warranty, the shit jobs and the warranty work no one else could fix.  I worked for that dealer almost 2 month and should have never taken the job, but that's hindsight.

Not all flaterate techs are like this, but in today's poor state of the economy, it's not a good scene in most shop.  I worked for 34 years as an hourly tech/shop foreman and made good money without all the crap from flatrate thievery. We had a union pay scale, benefits, insurance and a great retirement fund. I paid 60.00 a month for my medical, dental and optical with ZERO co-pay and a $5 dollar prescription plan. We had 6 sick days with pay. We had Presidents day off and a floating holiday available each year.
What's your flatrate plan provide for you ? What's your plan as you get older and can't keep the pace you do now ?  How's the retirement fund looking ? Any GOOD medical, dental, optical and family coverage available. Do you work holidays too. I never worked Memorial day, the 4th of July of any other recognized and national holidays. We always had the Friday after Thanksgiving off. We had Christmas Eve off and if Christmas fell on a Saturday, we had the next business day off.
Are uniforms where paid for. Our air tools where repaired at the dealers expense and should be for you too.
Flatrate is good while you're young and happy to burn up the streets with your ability, but it won't last for ever and then what ?
A lot of shops around here have unpaid techs standing by their toolboxes wondering who get the next job  Smiley
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« Last Edit: Jun 1st, 2011 at 12:54pm by drdiesel1 »  
 
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #8 - Jun 1st, 2011 at 6:41pm
 
drdiesel1 wrote on Jun 1st, 2011 at 12:27pm:
Manic Mechanic wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 11:25pm:
drdiesel1 wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 7:27pm:
Randy H. wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 5:37pm:
Good mechanics/techs are rare - many just replace parts and guess. Also a lot of shops are flatrate, so it doesnt pay to take your time and make sure its right.  

The Cancer of the industry  Smiley


I work flat rate, It always pays to do it right the first time , Testing not guessing pays me well , I invest in the tools to make me faster and better.... Cool



That's great.  I didn't say anything about you.  I was simply stating what most shops have working as a, so called tech.
After the corporation bought our dealership, they opened a new tech position to get around having a higher paid journeyman tech do the job. Now they have a bunch of low paid guesswork techs. All but a few of the journeyman guys are gone. The guys that did stay aren't that skilled and will not make a decent living off of flatrate.
The corporation has all but killed the customer base we had. Our waiting list was always about 1 to 2 days deep. Now no one has steady work and most of the customers are fed up with shitty workmanship and the need to return the car to the dealer because of problems from the repairs an service.  Everyone wants to cut corners and cherry pick work  Smiley

Flatrate breeds animosity in the shop and when someone takes a job to try and scrape the gravy and leave the shitwork for others, it's an ugly situation.  
I had guys take a check engine light to try and make money off the job. The guy had no business getting the job to start with and when he found himself over his head, he wanted to hand it off to me. The manager asked me to help him. It's a flatrate shop.  How was I suppose to make my money  Shocked Now the cars been in the shop for 2 weeks and he's grabbing other work and dancing around this car.
They let this guy get away with this all the time.  After seeing how the shop was run (I was new) it all started to show how poorly things were being done. If this guy couldn't make easy money, he passed the job off. If it had gravy, he would scrape it off the top and not do the rest of the work.  The customer is the one that suffered and the wire harness was hacked because when I told him to isolate the fault to the specific circuit.  He started cutting wires under the dash and on the engine harness.  Then the manager asked me to  fix the car and I refused.  I left the end of that week.  The only work I could get was warranty, the shit jobs and the warranty work no one else could fix.  I worked for that dealer almost 2 month and should have never taken the job, but that's hindsight.

Not all flaterate techs are like this, but in today's poor state of the economy, it's not a good scene in most shop.  I worked for 34 years as an hourly tech/shop foreman and made good money without all the crap from flatrate thievery. We had a union pay scale, benefits, insurance and a great retirement fund. I paid 60.00 a month for my medical, dental and optical with ZERO co-pay and a $5 dollar prescription plan. We had 6 sick days with pay. We had Presidents day off and a floating holiday available each year.
What's your flatrate plan provide for you ? What's your plan as you get older and can't keep the pace you do now ?  How's the retirement fund looking ? Any GOOD medical, dental, optical and family coverage available. Do you work holidays too. I never worked Memorial day, the 4th of July of any other recognized and national holidays. We always had the Friday after Thanksgiving off. We had Christmas Eve off and if Christmas fell on a Saturday, we had the next business day off.
Are uniforms where paid for. Our air tools where repaired at the dealers expense and should be for you too.
Flatrate is good while you're young and happy to burn up the streets with your ability, but it won't last for ever and then what ?
A lot of shops around here have unpaid techs standing by their toolboxes wondering who get the next job  Smiley


Sadly I agree with most of what  you said.
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jarvissamuel
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #9 - Jun 1st, 2011 at 8:19pm
 
Here is something interesting to start:

http://www.windrock.com/application-notes-files/tiusw.html

Hint: the patterns are showing normally negative fired ignition most scopes invert this  Smiley

For further discussion how about a couple of video clips:



While basic this shows it is important to know the abilities of the tool used to acquire secondary ignition.  If the scope is not set right or does not have enough resolution this can lead to some serious tail chasing.

Here is another one:



This was an actual failure and there was a discussion on this in the archives although I do not remember if it was in the Pico group or not.

One more if you are not totally sick of the video clips:



This was another using a specific Pico mode to acquire more information.

With those out lets start the discussion with questions and comments and I would add the disclaimer I am no ignition expert.

For the flat rate thing we can certainly start a new thread concerning that but I doubt anyone will feel better since there are only a few truly benefiting from that compensation plan.

Sam

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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #10 - Jun 2nd, 2011 at 4:29am
 
I dearly want to bring up the subject of the bad habit in the world of inverting the waveform from it's true shape. There is no voltage spike upward when the coil primary circuit is opened. Where there is voltage, there is power...open circuits have no power. Why are we all backwards?
That upwards voltage spike in a lean pattern makes more sense to me pointed down... there is a voltage drop because there is no more fuel to conduct electricity.
    The spark jumps the gap at ionization because it is being pushed by the primary. It looks like electricity bounces, that is those oscillations.
You fellows realize that 'classic' secondary waveform shape we've been watching is the  inverted real thing, right?
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #11 - Jun 2nd, 2011 at 12:04pm
 
For those of you whom dont know, the typical secondary waveform is the actual pattern turned upside down. When scope use was first being used to study ignition, some fellow thought the pattern that emerged from the firing event did not look like it ought and the pattern got turned upside down and has been that way since.
     Obviously our man did not sit out the analysis. We can, all these years later.
  Our man equated the spark in the ionization phase with an increase in electrical power. There is no evidence of that. The scope doesn't lie.For years we have been saying the Spark KV is related to the conditions at the combustion chamber, including secondary wiring; so they have an effect but turned upside down (or righted to their proper position I say) we can say that they are at least a value by what we can judge the condition of the coils... if there is a very high negative KV then the primary is powerful enough to produce a blue hot one, isn'tit?
If we had a problem and saw that high KV then we can at least know our coils CAN produce but that something is lost after the coil.
     Lets put our money where our mouth is. Lets analyze the reality.
               Isn't the Pico capable of inverting? Can we analyze that Tom?
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #12 - Jun 2nd, 2011 at 8:39pm
 
Fisher,

Not Tom but previously invert was accomplished by using custom probes.  Now that math channels are around there is a very simple way of inverting any scope pattern.

I would also keep in mind that on DIS in addition to negative fired there is also positive fired that shows the spark line going up (positive).  The pico software has a the choice of pos or negative fired and making the patterns making it pretty easy to set up.

Oh and handy tip want to know what companion cylinders are?  Use the firing order.   Example 1 2 3 4 5 6

Companion cylinders are: 1 2 3
                                     4 5 6

Sam
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #13 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 12:39am
 
jarvissamuel wrote on Jun 2nd, 2011 at 8:39pm:
Oh and handy tip want to know what companion cylinders are?  Use the firing order.   Example 1 2 3 4 5 6

Companion cylinders are: 1 2 3
                                     4 5 6

Sam



Yep, that's the easy way to figure it out.

4 cyl would be 1342
                      13
                     42
8 cyl. would be  18436572
                       1843
                      6572
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Re: Secondary ignition waveform diagnosis
Reply #14 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 11:37am
 
Yes, meaning the numbers that are paired one over the other are companions. I couldn't figure out why that was handy until I realized I may have the firing order but not know what cylinders were odd, even or number 1.
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