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electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico (Read 41,736 times)
Sam1
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #15 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 3:17pm
 
jarvissamuel wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 6:52am:
Hello Sam1 and welcome if it has not been said before.  ...

Sam


those videos were very good, thanks for sharing them. the last one shows how important to have a high res. graph.
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #16 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 3:39pm
 
Tom

may thanks for sharing. I noticed that the 3423 is a 12bit scope vs. the electraSpec/Jet which is 14bit.
having said that the pico is much better tool to have for the the more priority reasons stated earlier.
I also noticed the methods of connecting the units is different, with pico one needs to prob wires, with electraSpec/Jet, one need to purchase ECM brake_out connectors for each car ECM setup. one advantage here is that one doesn't have to wonder which wire on a CKP is the "correct" one probe. (end of second paragraph after fig.2 at http://www.picoauto.com/tutorials/vehicle-owner.html), however you pay for it. many connectors for multi ECMs.


Randy.
you fist post was a sharp ice-breaker. just that the ice was not ready for it. now, I take it you meant no offense.  Smiley I will surly consider CD#1 as you suggested. thanks
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Tom Roberts
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #17 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 4:44pm
 

Sam,

Quote:
he electraSpec/Jet which is 14bit.


Your sheet shows 10 bit. 

There are a lot of different PCM connectors out there...that would get expensive.  In addition, many PCMs are a nightmare to access and direct probing can be done rather quickly in most cases.

In your linked example of a floating ground EDIS CKP...the correct orientation is when the waveform rises in the missing tooth area.
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #18 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 4:46pm
 
Just to clarify, I was just told that the ElectraSpec/Jet has an ADC for each channel.
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #19 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 4:51pm
 

Thanks for that, Sam.  It wasn't clear from the sheet.  So, the 2MHz max ADC speeed would not be divided by channels deployed.
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #20 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 4:52pm
 
Tom Roberts wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 4:44pm:
Sam,

Quote:
he electraSpec/Jet which is 14bit.


Your sheet shows 10 bit. 

There are a lot of different PCM connectors out there...that would get expensive.  In addition, many PCMs are a nightmare to access and direct probing can be done rather quickly in most cases.

In your linked example of a floating ground EDIS CKP...the correct orientation is when the waveform rises in the missing tooth area.


Tom
what you said is correct. it is not 14 but only 10bit.

as to the correct orientation, could you please show a correct vs. incorrect screen shot of the waveform?

Thanks Smiley
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #21 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 5:05pm
 
jarvissamuel wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 6:52am:
...   Pico recently added advanced triggers as well to pico scope 6.  They did take away the merge feature (a favorite of mine) but I feel the other abilities make it worthwile.
...


what is the "merge feature" for? why did you like it? what are you doing to compensate for its absent?

what is the Advanced Triggers for?

thx

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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #22 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 5:34pm
 
Sam,

You might find this a good read:

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1077376754

Reply 10 explains some of the issues with floating VR sensors

The incorrect orientation is inverted and the waveform will fall in the missing tooth area.  

I can dig one up for you later if you want.  We have our 'Group Therapy With The Picotologist' session tonight so I am off to set up for that.
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #23 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 5:43pm
 
Sam1,

Tom might be a little busy right now since we are getting ready to start our monthly live conferencing, so I thought maybe I would address your questions.

Quote:
as to the correct orientation, could you please show a correct vs. incorrect screen shot of the waveform?


Below is a composite view of the current and incorrect orientation.

Quote:
what is the "merge feature" for?


The "merge feature" is for comparing one capture to another utilizing one screen. You can go one above another (max 4), overlay views, side-by-side (max 2), or 2x2 square (max 4). This is using the PicoScope 5 software.

Quote:
what is the Advanced Triggers for?


This can get real lengthy trying to type all of that out. Tom made a flash movie tutorial on this that goes into great detail on that. My advise would be to grab a bag of popcorn and watch the movie. I can give you a general overview later, but I'm running a little late right now preparing for the conference.




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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #24 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 10:40pm
 
I noticed that list of items which come with the PicoQuad kit. and also the other items which do not come with it;

Pico’s 12 Channel
Secondary Signal Mixer
The FirstLook Pulse Sensor
Coil on Plug Probe
Universal Breakout Lead Set

what and how often a situation would arise which REALLY needs one of the above? I mean , had you not have it, it would have not been possible to fix the problem, or saved you lots of time using it.

thanks
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #25 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 12:11am
 
Sam,

Just to clarify some things:

Merge Feature:
The merge feature that Samuel was talking about will be available on the next release of PicoScope 6 Automotive.  Instead of being called merge function this will now be called reference waveforms.  The attached picture shows the reference waveforms in action showing 3 of the exactly same crank waveforms displayed to give you an idea of the function.  I quickly took a saved waveform and took the crank waveform from it and added it to another waveform from the scope.  You can create known good ignition, crank, cam signals etc and save them as reference waveforms so you can quickly overlay them to determine if the pattern you are currently looking at falls within your good/bad parameters.  You can have a maximum of 8 reference waveforms shown on one view.  If you add more it will simply adds more views to view the additional reference waveforms.

Advanced Triggers:
Advanced triggers add greatly to the PicoScope functions available to the technician.  Most advanced triggers that the PicoScope comes with are only available to oscilloscopes that are in the next realm of pricing compared to the PicoScope.  Advanced triggers greatly improve the ability of the technician to capture the waveform that they are trying to get.  Matt Fanslow of Pico Technology wrote a quip about advanced triggers that I would recommend reading.  You can view that article at http://www.wavehook.com/dbase/article.html?article=aff9e1bd469fc5142d1f5be1c8642....  

MixMaster Ignition Mixer:
Traditionally with the PicoScope you can view up to 4 different ignition signals at once (with the PS3423, 2 channels with the PS3223).  With the MixMaster you may view up to 12 channels paraded across the screen.  If you are interested in viewing paraded signals of all cylinders this piece of equipment makes it possible with the PicoScope.  

FirstLook Sensor:
The FirstLook Sensor is a piezoelectric sensor that allows you to view slight changes in pressure.  The way this sensor works is if there is no change in pressure the voltage does not change.  As soon as there is a slight change this sensor detects it and you can view it.  Common uses with it are to insert the FirstLook sensor into the exhaust pipe and view the pressure changes as each cylinder fires; also numerous people connect the unit to the vacuum port of the pressure regulator on the fuel injector rail and are able to see the pressure changes as each individual injector fires.  I personally consider this an essential tool for diagnosis but, I would invest in Pico's now WPS500x pressure transducer (when it becomes available for shipment) as this is to do everything thing that the FirstLook does plus measure cylinder pressures etc.

Coil on Plug Probe:
Typically, on coil on plug systems, you are limited to simply current ramping etc to determine the status on the coil.  Some people wish to be able to view the secondary pattern off the COP just like you can with traditional secondary ignition systems.  To be able to do this Pico came out with the COP probe that allows you to capture the secondary patterns from COP systems.  To capture the pattern you simply connect the COP probe to the PicoScope and touch the tip of the probe to the coil you wish to measure.  This will take some learning however as each model of coil is insulated differently and hence the kV represented will have to be taken with a grain of salt.  When comparing 8 individual coils on the same engine this is an excellent way to knock out a bad coil.

Universal Breakout Lead Set:
These leads come in small, medium and large with the medium and large fitting most pins on US vehicles.  Essentially what these leads allow you to do is connect to a sensor with out the need to damage the connector by back probing.  Most OEM's are putting in place ordinances where the technician can not back probe the sensor in fear of issues arising later in on in the vehicle life.  With the breakout leads you can safely connect to the sensor and obtain its values without the fear of damaging its connectors.  You can purchase the leads separately or all three sizes in a pack.

Needs that arise for the above additional tools at your disposal:
Mixmaster:  This would vary person to person and on your diagnostic technique. People that use big box analyzers will find the MixMaster essential.  Others will look first to their scan data and determine which cylinder is causing the issue and then inspect that cylinder first.  Scan data should work hand in hand with scope data for proper diagnosis of customer complaints.  If scan data doesn't point you in a direction, the MixMaster will come in handy in that instance.

FirstLook:  The FirstLook sensor will allow you to verify which cylinder is causing the issue, and also depending on how you use it, if it is fuel, mechanical, or electrical.  When used in the exhaust pipe and with an ignition trigger this can detect which cylinder is misfiring better than most scan tools.  Refer to thompsonautolabs.com for more information on this subject.

Coil on Plug Probe:  This comes down to personal diagnostic preference.  It depends on if you are used to diagnosing ignition problems through secondary waveforms or other methods such as current patterns.  If you are used to secondary waveforms and work on COP cars the COP probe is essential.  If you are used to current patterns Pico sells quality low noise current clamps also.

Universal Breakout Lead Set:
The breakout lead set allow you to connect to almost all sensors on the common car today.  You can purchase the breakout lead set or back probe the sensor and risk damaging the connector.

Regards,

Richard Boyd
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« Last Edit: Jan 23rd, 2009 at 6:43am by Kennedy »  

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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #26 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 6:59am
 
Sam1

The file merge/composite feature originated in the pico scope 5 software and is currently available in it still as far as I know.  Basically it allowed taking two files and combining them and observing them in different views.  It could even be the same file combined to look at different areas in greater detail at the same time.  A great benefit of this was before and afters for customers.  The downside with the pico 5 software is the trigger(if present)  had to be identical to merge.

Pico six offered a merge feature starting at 6 0 0  but had fewer display styles but did not require the triggers be exactly the same.  I kept the version with the merge until the advanced triggers came out.

Tom  has a tutorial movie for merge among many others but I believe it is in the the Picogroup area.  I also have some posts there but if I get some time I will post some images of merge.

Sam
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #27 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:27am
 
Sam1 wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 10:40pm:
I noticed that list of items which come with the PicoQuad kit. and also the other items which do not come with it;

Pico’s 12 Channel Secondary Signal Mixer
The FirstLook Pulse Sensor
Coil on Plug Probe
Universal Breakout Lead Set

what and how often a situation would arise which REALLY needs one of the above? I mean , had you not have it, it would have not been possible to fix the problem, or saved you lots of time using it.

thanks

Sam,

Those are "luxuary items" that save time or give your more data... but you can still get the job done without them.

Also note that the FLS pressure transducer measures the rate of change of pressure (see what Kennedy said)... so it can be a bit tricky to interpret the waveform.

Joe

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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #28 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 2:28pm
 
What about a trigger lead? I remember reading about it being used. but don't see it in the list of items in the QuadKit nor in the extras.
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Re: electraspec/electrajet vs. Pico
Reply #29 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 2:51pm
 
Sam,

Not sure what you mean.  You can trigger off of any signal.  No special lead required.

Do you mean the TA032 inductive ignition trigger lead?  This is not in the kit, nor is it required to trigger ignition.  But it does produce a clean spike for triggering and some really like it.  We carry those but don't have them on our web store.
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« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2009 at 3:15pm by Tom Roberts »  

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