Does anyone have  any information on secondary ignition waveforms.Maybe with  a nice introduction  leading  up to a more in depth  look.

"A little passion of mine vehicle diagnostics.Im not a proffesional but I think I know a heck of a lot more than most  mechanics."

Do you need it ?   :-/

Check out Motor magazine - they have some good online articles. Best way to learn is do some R and D with a scope. You can read and watch videos all you want but experience makes you remember.

Robski wrote on May 30^th, 2011 at 10:46am:

I think I know a heck of a lot more than most  mechanics."

Sounds like me - even before I went into the automotive field I was repairing my friends cars that the dealerships  and local shops couldnt fix. Good mechanics/techs are rare - many just replace parts and guess. Also a lot of shops are flatrate, so it doesnt pay to take your time and make sure its right. But there are a few good flatrate techs out there...like Jim Wilson. THE FLATERATER....check out his website

Randy H. wrote on May 30^th, 2011 at 5:37pm:

Good mechanics/techs are rare - many just replace parts and guess. Also a lot of shops are flatrate, so it doesnt pay to take your time and make sure its right.

The Cancer of the industry  [smiley=atomic.gif]

drdiesel1 wrote on May 30^th, 2011 at 7:27pm:

Randy H. wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 5:37pm: Good mechanics/techs are rare - many just replace parts and guess. Also a lot of shops are flatrate, so it doesnt pay to take your time and make sure its right.   The Cancer of the industry  [smiley=atomic.gif]

I work flat rate, It always pays to do it right the first time , Testing not guessing pays me well , I invest in the tools to make me faster and better.... 8-)

Manic Mech - do you ever get a car it takes more than an hour to diagnose? If so, what do you do? eat the extra hours to fix it? Or send it to another shop, and charge the customer nothing?
(thats what I was saying)

Hey guys

That was a quote from bangshout not me  when he introduced himself to the site  ;)

http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1301317334

Manic Mechanic wrote on May 30^th, 2011 at 11:25pm:

drdiesel1 wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 7:27pm: Randy H. wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 5:37pm: Good mechanics/techs are rare - many just replace parts and guess. Also a lot of shops are flatrate, so it doesnt pay to take your time and make sure its right.   The Cancer of the industry  [smiley=atomic.gif] I work flat rate, It always pays to do it right the first time , Testing not guessing pays me well , I invest in the tools to make me faster and better.... 8-)

That's great.  I didn't say anything about you.  I was simply stating what most shops have working as a, so called tech.
After the corporation bought our dealership, they opened a new tech position to get around having a higher paid journeyman tech do the job. Now they have a bunch of low paid guesswork techs. All but a few of the journeyman guys are gone. The guys that did stay aren't that skilled and will not make a decent living off of flatrate.
The corporation has all but killed the customer base we had. Our waiting list was always about 1 to 2 days deep. Now no one has steady work and most of the customers are fed up with shitty workmanship and the need to return the car to the dealer because of problems from the repairs an service.  Everyone wants to cut corners and cherry pick work  [smiley=bash.gif]

Flatrate breeds animosity in the shop and when someone takes a job to try and scrape the gravy and leave the shitwork for others, it's an ugly situation.  
I had guys take a check engine light to try and make money off the job. The guy had no business getting the job to start with and when he found himself over his head, he wanted to hand it off to me. The manager asked me to help him. It's a flatrate shop.  How was I suppose to make my money  :o Now the cars been in the shop for 2 weeks and he's grabbing other work and dancing around this car.
They let this guy get away with this all the time.  After seeing how the shop was run (I was new) it all started to show how poorly things were being done. If this guy couldn't make easy money, he passed the job off. If it had gravy, he would scrape it off the top and not do the rest of the work.  The customer is the one that suffered and the wire harness was hacked because when I told him to isolate the fault to the specific circuit.  He started cutting wires under the dash and on the engine harness.  Then the manager asked me to  fix the car and I refused.  I left the end of that week.  The only work I could get was warranty, the shit jobs and the warranty work no one else could fix.  I worked for that dealer almost 2 month and should have never taken the job, but that's hindsight.

Not all flaterate techs are like this, but in today's poor state of the economy, it's not a good scene in most shop.  I worked for 34 years as an hourly tech/shop foreman and made good money without all the crap from flatrate thievery. We had a union pay scale, benefits, insurance and a great retirement fund. I paid 60.00 a month for my medical, dental and optical with ZERO co-pay and a $5 dollar prescription plan. We had 6 sick days with pay. We had Presidents day off and a floating holiday available each year.
What's your flatrate plan provide for you ? What's your plan as you get older and can't keep the pace you do now ?  How's the retirement fund looking ? Any GOOD medical, dental, optical and family coverage available. Do you work holidays too. I never worked Memorial day, the 4th of July of any other recognized and national holidays. We always had the Friday after Thanksgiving off. We had Christmas Eve off and if Christmas fell on a Saturday, we had the next business day off.
Are uniforms where paid for. Our air tools where repaired at the dealers expense and should be for you too.
Flatrate is good while you're young and happy to burn up the streets with your ability, but it won't last for ever and then what ?
A lot of shops around here have unpaid techs standing by their toolboxes wondering who get the next job  [smiley=hairpull.gif]

drdiesel1 wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 12:27pm:

Manic Mechanic wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 11:25pm: drdiesel1 wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 7:27pm: Randy H. wrote on May 30th, 2011 at 5:37pm: Good mechanics/techs are rare - many just replace parts and guess. Also a lot of shops are flatrate, so it doesnt pay to take your time and make sure its right.   The Cancer of the industry  [smiley=atomic.gif] I work flat rate, It always pays to do it right the first time , Testing not guessing pays me well , I invest in the tools to make me faster and better.... 8-) That's great.  I didn't say anything about you.  I was simply stating what most shops have working as a, so called tech. After the corporation bought our dealership, they opened a new tech position to get around having a higher paid journeyman tech do the job. Now they have a bunch of low paid guesswork techs. All but a few of the journeyman guys are gone. The guys that did stay aren't that skilled and will not make a decent living off of flatrate. The corporation has all but killed the customer base we had. Our waiting list was always about 1 to 2 days deep. Now no one has steady work and most of the customers are fed up with shitty workmanship and the need to return the car to the dealer because of problems from the repairs an service.  Everyone wants to cut corners and cherry pick work  [smiley=bash.gif] Flatrate breeds animosity in the shop and when someone takes a job to try and scrape the gravy and leave the shitwork for others, it's an ugly situation.   I had guys take a check engine light to try and make money off the job. The guy had no business getting the job to start with and when he found himself over his head, he wanted to hand it off to me. The manager asked me to help him. It's a flatrate shop.  How was I suppose to make my money  :o Now the cars been in the shop for 2 weeks and he's grabbing other work and dancing around this car. They let this guy get away with this all the time.  After seeing how the shop was run (I was new) it all started to show how poorly things were being done. If this guy couldn't make easy money, he passed the job off. If it had gravy, he would scrape it off the top and not do the rest of the work.  The customer is the one that suffered and the wire harness was hacked because when I told him to isolate the fault to the specific circuit.  He started cutting wires under the dash and on the engine harness.  Then the manager asked me to  fix the car and I refused.  I left the end of that week.  The only work I could get was warranty, the shit jobs and the warranty work no one else could fix.  I worked for that dealer almost 2 month and should have never taken the job, but that's hindsight. Not all flaterate techs are like this, but in today's poor state of the economy, it's not a good scene in most shop.  I worked for 34 years as an hourly tech/shop foreman and made good money without all the crap from flatrate thievery. We had a union pay scale, benefits, insurance and a great retirement fund. I paid 60.00 a month for my medical, dental and optical with ZERO co-pay and a $5 dollar prescription plan. We had 6 sick days with pay. We had Presidents day off and a floating holiday available each year. What's your flatrate plan provide for you ? What's your plan as you get older and can't keep the pace you do now ?  How's the retirement fund looking ? Any GOOD medical, dental, optical and family coverage available. Do you work holidays too. I never worked Memorial day, the 4th of July of any other recognized and national holidays. We always had the Friday after Thanksgiving off. We had Christmas Eve off and if Christmas fell on a Saturday, we had the next business day off. Are uniforms where paid for. Our air tools where repaired at the dealers expense and should be for you too. Flatrate is good while you're young and happy to burn up the streets with your ability, but it won't last for ever and then what ? A lot of shops around here have unpaid techs standing by their toolboxes wondering who get the next job  [smiley=hairpull.gif]

Sadly I agree with most of what  you said.

Here is something interesting to start:

http://www.windrock.com/application-notes-files/tiusw.html

Hint: the patterns are showing normally negative fired ignition most scopes invert this  :)

For further discussion how about a couple of video clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJEbhELLJQY

While basic this shows it is important to know the abilities of the tool used to acquire secondary ignition.  If the scope is not set right or does not have enough resolution this can lead to some serious tail chasing.

Here is another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELBWsQC6G3I

This was an actual failure and there was a discussion on this in the archives although I do not remember if it was in the Pico group or not.

One more if you are not totally sick of the video clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6oixXsoQpE

This was another using a specific Pico mode to acquire more information.

With those out lets start the discussion with questions and comments and I would add the disclaimer I am no ignition expert.

For the flat rate thing we can certainly start a new thread concerning that but I doubt anyone will feel better since there are only a few truly benefiting from that compensation plan.

Sam

I dearly want to bring up the subject of the bad habit in the world of inverting the waveform from it's true shape. There is no voltage spike upward when the coil primary circuit is opened. Where there is voltage, there is power...open circuits have no power. Why are we all backwards?
That upwards voltage spike in a lean pattern makes more sense to me pointed down... there is a voltage drop because there is no more fuel to conduct electricity.
   The spark jumps the gap at ionization because it is being pushed by the primary. It looks like electricity bounces, that is those oscillations.
You fellows realize that 'classic' secondary waveform shape we've been watching is the  inverted real thing, right?

For those of you whom dont know, the typical secondary waveform is the actual pattern turned upside down. When scope use was first being used to study ignition, some fellow thought the pattern that emerged from the firing event did not look like it ought and the pattern got turned upside down and has been that way since.
    Obviously our man did not sit out the analysis. We can, all these years later.
 Our man equated the spark in the ionization phase with an increase in electrical power. There is no evidence of that. The scope doesn't lie.For years we have been saying the Spark KV is related to the conditions at the combustion chamber, including secondary wiring; so they have an effect but turned upside down (or righted to their proper position I say) we can say that they are at least a value by what we can judge the condition of the coils... if there is a very high negative KV then the primary is powerful enough to produce a blue hot one, isn'tit?
If we had a problem and saw that high KV then we can at least know our coils CAN produce but that something is lost after the coil.
    Lets put our money where our mouth is. Lets analyze the reality.
               Isn't the Pico capable of inverting? Can we analyze that Tom?

Fisher,

Not Tom but previously invert was accomplished by using custom probes.  Now that math channels are around there is a very simple way of inverting any scope pattern.

I would also keep in mind that on DIS in addition to negative fired there is also positive fired that shows the spark line going up (positive).  The pico software has a the choice of pos or negative fired and making the patterns making it pretty easy to set up.

Oh and handy tip want to know what companion cylinders are?  Use the firing order.   Example 1 2 3 4 5 6

Companion cylinders are: 1 2 3
                                     4 5 6

Sam

jarvissamuel wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2011 at 8:39pm:

Oh and handy tip want to know what companion cylinders are?  Use the firing order.   Example 1 2 3 4 5 6 Companion cylinders are: 1 2 3                                      4 5 6 Sam

Yep, that's the easy way to figure it out.

4 cyl would be 1342
                      13
                     42
8 cyl. would be  18436572
                       1843
                      6572

Yes, meaning the numbers that are paired one over the other are companions. I couldn't figure out why that was handy until I realized I may have the firing order but not know what cylinders were odd, even or number 1.

You get what I am asking? We have been saying that there is a voltage increase at primary shut-off. The scope pattern has been inverted  though. In actuality there is no such spike.
   When you open the primary circuit, you witness that drop in voltage if you have left the pattern alone to display as it shows uninverted. The scope is not lying.
Someone had a problem equating the voltage drop of coil turn off with the existence of the flame in the spark...their question was, "How can a lack of voltage create a spark?"
So the pattern gets turned over to make it look like there is a voltage increase -there is a spark , so, there must be power to create that spark; an increase in voltage...

fisher wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2011 at 2:02pm:

So the pattern gets turned over to make it look like there is a voltage increase

Whether there is an increase or decrease doesn't matter. The scope clearly shows a potential difference, in other words voltage! A 20kv spike is a 20kv potential difference, the starting point doesn't matter but the difference from the starting point does.

fisher wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2011 at 2:02pm:

So the pattern gets turned over to make it look like there is a voltage increase

A voltage potential is a voltage potential, whether positive or negative polarity. Whether or not it is inverted is of no consequence.
There is no lack of voltage - there is a resistance across the spark gap which the energy(electrical charge) of the coil secondary wants to return to where it was created. To do this it must flow across the spark gap. So it creates a corona, ionizes(kv voltage), then turns to plasma, which lowers effective resistance across the gap. (this is the burn line)
Its just that simple.
Mr bill is saying exactly the same thing as I am. ;)

Secondary osciloscope patterns can show the firing voltage needed to start and finish the current flow across the spark plug electrodes, which can be anylized to tell you much about what is happening inside the combustion chamber (like open plug wires, large plug gaps,high or low compression etc.). And this is the most important area of an internal combustion engine, the whole purpose of the engine is to produce power to push the vehicle and this is where that happens.
Primary scope patterns do not show the firing voltage level but do show burn time as the secondary does as well and this usualy is in proportion to firing voltage, the exceptions to this would be a fouled plug-wet or carboned up.
Sometimes it's easier to get at one or the other (primary or secondary) so having both capabilities is nice, also secondary can be deadly to your scope or computer, make shure you ground any leads used for secondary and dont hook directly to primary without an attenuator.

I would highly recomend the autonerdz training material, Mac vandenbrink www.datec.us he has some free downloads, as well as full powerpoint training you can purchase or bill fulton www.ohioautotech.com enhanced ignition system testing this is also available at auto-video. also great training at   www.auto-video.com they also have on demand online videos to purchase.

It's an awsome area of interest, pico/autonerdz has a secondary tool called mixmaster shows all cylinders and parades EI/DIS as well. I would buy it direct from them if I had it to do over again and get the support package, which is included in there scope packages last I knew. I also recomend at least 4 trace scope.

I have studied scoping ignitions for some time and your equipment will play a big role in this, definitely a book/video & hands on thing to learn! Each vehicle layout, Like fuel rail shape clogging injector inlets at ends or rail can showup in scope pattern as lean injector. get a propane tank enrichening tool so you can experiment richening and pull vacuum hose to lean it.

I should stop here, please excuse my grammar? If you want to know more ask on but too fully learn ignition anylization get training videos/books etc.  
Hope this was usefull, have fun!
Wow i just noticed how old this post was Oh well. mayby your still looking for replies.

Never hurts to add some information Ben.

Some more information

---

Further evaluation

---

Please find attached a file of a capture of a BMW E46 with a M43 engine.

It has a coil pack mounted on the skirt with ignition leads to the spark plugs.

The car had a mis fire on acceleration that was infact a loos lead onto #4 spark plug, but there are clearly other issues.

We are yet to complete our diagnosis but I would welcome comment on the secondary capture.

---

Logic thanks for the info!

Logic, is that a Beta version of PICO?

I think so, I opened it with the latest beta.